I never wanted to be your stupid governor anyway!
It was brought to my attention by the Fayetteville Freethinkers website that the Arkansas Constitution has a peculiar article within it. Go ahead and download a copy of it for yourself because I think you actually have to see this in writing to realize it is there; not so much because it is surprising, but just the sheer blatancy of it. On page 56 (74 of 159 in the pdf), Article 19 Section 1, of the Arkansas Constitution states:
Article 19, section 1 of the Arkansas Constitution: Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness.
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court.
This is the fucking state Constitution that secures MY rights? Anytime you’re in Arkansas feel free to come mug me or kill my family. We don’t believe in a god so it’s ok. And I wasn’t really ever interested in being Governor anyway. I am just so busy raping farm animals and burning churches. Who has the time to do all that and corrupt my children at the same time? Honestly, we probably shouldn’t even be allowed to have children. We haven’t been properly brainwashing them about invisible sky man anyway. They’ll probably just grow up and finish that screenplay I’ve been writing about a gay Jesus. (I’m thinking of calling The Sermon on the Brokeback Mount.) Thanks Arkansas, for codifying just how much you are bunch of ignorant backward bigots! My family and I should have been valued members of your state. We are well educated and even though we do not fear a spanking from your zombie overlord, we still manage to lead highly moral lives. But perhaps we will move to a place less blatant about their intolerance. Someone told me just earlier today I should try moving to Afganistan.
edit - I’d like to apologize for the vitriol I wrote this with. It doesn’t really reflect very well on me or the site. I apologize.
The points still remains, though, that this is wrong and it has no place in modern America. Allowing laws like this to stay in the constitution are doubly troublesome. On the one hand, we are supposed to have religious freedom in this country. But the deeper legal issue is that by selectively enforcing parts of the constitution we undermine its value as a legal document. Anyone that values the law should realize that they are only effective if they are applied uniformly across the board. If a law is outgrown, it should be repealed or amended. We have the machinations included in the Constitution for just such cases. Whether you are a Christian or an Atheist or whatever this law (and all laws that go unenforced) concerns you. If we can ignore this part of the Constitution, we can ignore any part we want.
I veto Afganistan, and vote for Oregon instead. You know I think we should leave the south, eventually, anyway. I mean, I wouldn’t raise my kids in a society controlled by the Taliban, so why should I raise them in the south where Christian fundies rule? I just really don’t want that sort of influence on my innocent children.
What about the Christian Taliban?
Imagine the life of an atheist homosexual dark-skinned arab-origins soldier, fighting in Iraq.
yo its time to leave arkansas
Sara,
Guess you wouldn’t wanna raise em in Massachussetts or Pennsylvania either. http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/StateConstitutions.htm
It’s an old law, and ALL states had these laws at one time. Plus, it’s completely unenforcable. If it’s challenged it will be struck down.
Thankfully, I only had to live in Jesusland (Little Rock) for a few months…..
While I will contend that not all Southerners (myself included) are not funie morons…..damn, its hard to break the stereotype sometimes…..
How come there are so many stupid people in the USA?
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours - Stephen Roberts
Seems perfectly logical to me. Part of being a witness for the state and/or taking a public office involves swearing on the bible (,qur’an other holy book). If that someone is an atheist, the reason behind swearing is nullified, as the individual could break any and all promises to the deity he dosen’t belive exists, with no moral repercussions whatsoever. Therefore it stands to reason that those who could not possibly be indoctrinated into these public rituals should be excluded.
See? logical
Come on now. It’s probably some ancient law that’s been on the books since the state was founded and is now obsolete and unenforceable. Yeah it’s terrible, and yes Arkansas is a bit overcrowded by fundie types (I’ve been there many-a-time visiting family) but don’t overreact and sterotype all Christians as bigoted athiest haters.
Well, I guess there are a lot of silly old laws nobody had time to purge from the System. Still, you’re an evil atheist, you can just lie you believe in some God, and once you obtain power, abuse it to punish the little drones
This was my essential (if flippant) point. I can understand why an atheist would feel threatened by this point in the constitution. And verily, it should be removed. It’s important to understand why this was there however, given the feelings and beliefs of the majority of people where you live. The act of swearing is a very deeply held ritual belief by many (not just, what’s the word, “fundies”? sounds like “towelheads” to me but that’s neither here nor there), and similarly, if you are going to stand for office and presume to speak for the population, then sharing their belief system would be a prerequisite for the job in the eyes of most people.
So what’s the next logical step? We could call them all evil for not disbelieving like the rest of us, or…
we could go about finding a way to get this obsolete piece of the constitution removed. In a way which accomodates the beliefs and disbeliefs of everyone involved.
If we assume that everyone including the towelheads are in fact logical people who can make decisions outside their pastor’s instructions, then if should be possible.
wow chill out jackass… petition to have it changed.
It was obviously written somewhere back in dipshit time.
Good God, you people are sensitive.
Get it? Good “God”.. get it?
Yeah I get it. Fair enough that may have come over a little strong. I swear I was using my happy voice in my head. My apologies.
Despite when or why it was implemented, it is still “law.” So when/if an atheist runs for office or testifies in court the state constitution can be referenced to dismiss the individual.
I can easily see a lawyer or candidate for office using this law against an atheist so it does need to be removed regardless of how irrelevant or representative of the people it might be.
Like an atheist has a chance in that state anyway… They could be the most intelligent and qualified candidate ever seen, as soon as they announced they were a “non-believer” they would be cast aside as evil. (SIGH)
It doesn’t matter if it is enforced or not. It is wrong and in any “free” society it cannot exist.
[…] So, in TN we are doing stupid things with our constitution like dictating morals, telling people whether or not they can get married, and forbidding people from buying dildos. But in Arkansas they have an article in their constitution forbidding Atheists from holding public office or testifying as a witness! I’m calling my state representative! Our stupidity has been one up’d! Article 19, section 1 of the Arkansas Constitution: Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness. […]
[…] [ via | reddit ] […]
Someone should really be using this to get out of Jury Duty…
Laywer : “The Defense calls Mr A. Theist to the stand.”
[Mr A. Theist solemnly takes the stand and raises his right hand]
Guard : “Do You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?”
A. Theist : “I do”
Lawyer : “YOU’RE LYING!!”
What if I name my fish God? Can I hold office if I believe in him?
Chris- If it’s obsolete and unenforceable, then it needs to be taken off the books.
Bob- “fundie” is short for fundamentalist.
You said: “if you are going to stand for office and presume to speak for the population, then sharing their belief system would be a prerequisite for the job in the eyes of most people.”
People get to vote. They don’t have to vote for anyone they don’t want to. The US Constitution gaurantees that no one should be denied their rights on the basis of religion. Belief in a god should not be a prerequisite for holding office, period.
Mike- You’re right. No athiest is likely to be elected to office in Arkansas right now. However, the law is still unjust and it should be dealt with.
Of course, we also have a more recent amendment to our state constitution forbidding homosexuals from marrying, which is another injustice which fundies have inflicted on their neighbors. That was just added recently, so if you really think the part regarding athiests couldn’t be enforced, you might want to think again. Most of Arkansas is, in many ways, a very backwards part of the US.
Some of you guys are stupid. This isn’t a law, this is part of their constitution; it’s completely different than a law. It’ll take more than a court to strke the provision down.
Sad. All of it is just really sad. And set about by a bunch of people who can’t accept that some don’t think as they do. Just what is really wrong with being outside the norm?
Not all Arkansans are ignorant hillbillies. Most of the people I associate with are agnostic at best, and many are aethists, including myself. Please don’t judge everyone by the ignorant.
And the law isn’t enforced at all.
James,
I currently reside in Fayetteville, AR (and recently graduated from the U of A with a Computer Science degree — I’m even a web developer — just like you). Let me say that Fayetteville (where you live), with very few exceptions (like Hendrix), is perhaps the most liberal place in Arkansas, so please calm down a bit.
I’ve lived in several parts of the country over the years and here’s the simple truth: you are smack dab in the middle of “fundie” territory! What do you really expect when living in the bible belt? I wouldn’t go to Utah and declare martial law on all the Mormons… it’s where they live! Let me make sure this is clear though: I never said anything like “if you don’t like it, you need to leave”. That’s always been a silly thing to say, no matter what side you’re on.
I am a Christian (even a “card-carrying” member of the local Southern Baptist Church), so in truth, this consitutional section from the civil war era doesn’t make me lose all the much sleep. There are lot’s of other state constitutions that feature similarly anitquated articles.
However, it doesn’t mean I think it’s correct still being in there. Unlike your apparent opinion of all of us “fundies”, I actually think there’s a place for seperation of church and state…. believe it or not, a LOT of “us” really do think this. Thing is, we aren’t running around screaming and whining about it when it’s helping our cause. I’m willing to bet (if I was a betting man, hehe), that you wouldn’t have written this blog entry if the constitutional article said “You can’t run for office or be a witness if you are a Christian”.
Regardless, I’m truly astounded that this hasn’t been changed yet. Guess we’ll have to wait for a liberal who care’s enough to get it changed, hehe.
Interesting Side Note: Perhaps I should seek out some categories of local government where it’s obvious there are only non-Christians running in the race and then get my name on the ballet? Once I lose the election, I can simply take it to the Arkansas Supreme Court using Article 19, section 1 as my defense. It’s like a virtual guarantee of getting in. Plus, all the press of the events could really get my name out there!
Of course, my opponents would likely just lie and say they were Christians so they could keep their office; yunno, not having any morals b/c they are godless and all…. It’s a joke, I’m only kidding.
Dustin Weber
http://www.dustinweber.com
Dustin, I was a little pissed when I wrote it. I had just found out about it. Like you suggest, imagine you had just found out the constitution in the state you live denied you the right to hold office or even testify in court because of your beliefs. I overreacted a bit, but the point still remains that this is absolutely wrong. Whether it is enforced or not, it speaks volumes about the acceptance in this state of people with differing beliefs. And you are absolutely right about Fayetteville. I love it here. I just get very frustrated with the close-mindedness of a very vocal (I hope) minority. It is good to be reminded that there are many open-minded Christians living in the area.
BTW - I’m sure we know each other. The only Dustin I remember worked in the small business development center. Was that you?
Yeah, I think you were a little pissed. Your OP is a bit vulgar. Please don’t kill me.
It annoys me too, though.
Substitute for fundie: Religious fundamentalist who attempts to coerce others into obeying their religious doctrine. I apologize, I didn’t mean to offend, I thought the definition was commonly understood and didn’t want to type all of that.
It does not matter if the majority of Arkansans are Christian. The US Constitution is meant to protect the rights of all citizens, even those who fall in a minority group. What would anyone think if the state constitution prohibited Jews from holding office, even if it wasn’t enforced? That wouldn’t fly, and this shouldn’t either.
There are some Christians who are tolerant of differences, but there are others who are not. Separation of church and state is so important because there are people (not just Christians) who would like to use the government to force their beliefs on others. Sometimes, they manage to sneak something in. Years ago, when people were so worried about communism, religion was inserted into the government via McCarthyism. That is why we have “In God We Trust” as our national motto and printed on our money. It is also why “Under God” is in the pledge. Those statements exclude many religious minority groups, including athiests, wiccans, taoists, agnostics, and I’m sure many others. They need to be removed, just like the provision regarding athiests in the Arkansas Constitution, because they are descriminatory and make an establishment of religion which is clearly illegal under the US Constitution.
James,
No prob man… look at us… completely opposite ends of the spectrum and ::tear in eye:: almost getting along.. hehe.
When I was there, I worked at the Law School (comptuer tech) & JB Hunt (random computer lacky). Though about Wal-Mart, but I now work for Eponym.com (and it’s various other sister companies) and could not be happier. Depending on when you graduated, we probably at least saw each other (not too many CS majors around Fayetteville any more). I don’t recognize your face though.
Sara,
I like fundie (I am one right?), I think I’ll use it from now on when I refer to myself in the third person. I’ll be known as the Fundie Bob Dole.
- Dustin Weber
for anyone just reading the comments, I edited the main article. My apologies again for the vulgarity
[quote Bob] Part of being a witness for the state and/or taking a public office involves swearing on the bible (,qur’an other holy book). If that someone is an atheist, the reason behind swearing is nullified, as the individual could break any and all promises to the deity he dosen’t belive exists, with no moral repercussions whatsoever. [/quote]
If you do not wish to take an oath on a holy book, you can ask to affirm. The words of the affirmation are very similar to an oath and carry equal meaning but you will not be asked to hold a holy book when you speak. So, religious affiliation is not a requirement for a judicial/executive obligation.
Hey, you’re missing the power of this “law”
see this “…denies the being of a God…”
picture the courtroom:
Lawyer (to witness on stand): Do you believe in Thor?
Witness: Excuse me?
Lawyer: You know Thor, norse god, long beard, hammer, hat with pointy horns; Thor.
Witness: Erm, no.
Lawyer: Your honor, I move that this witness be disqaulified as not competent to testify based on Article 19, section 1 of the Arkansas Constitution.
Dave: lol
Fuck that. I live in Arkansas, Fayetteville to be precise, and while I wouldn’t say that I’m an ‘atheist’ in the sense that I think there may or may not be a God, but I think He is largely impotent and irrelevant.
I was born in Arkansas, I love the South, and I’m not going to let any stupid bigots run me out. This is my State. This is where my kids are going to grow up. And you shouldn’t let them run you out either. If you do, they just win.
Fight the power.
El Freak,
the link you submitted about other states is actually wrong in one respect. Read Pennsylvania’s carefully: you’ll see it’s stating the opposite position. It doesn’t say you MUST believe in God; it says you can’t be DISqualified if you DO believe in God. it basically guarantees the right of believers to hold office.
If it were just me, I probably would stay, but I don’t want my kids to grow up here.
I thought religion and politics were forcibly seperated in the US?
Peter, we live in Fayetteville, too and I understand what you are saying. I feel torn about it. I really like Fayetteville. I want to stay and try to change things, but I worry about my children’s safety. Also, I feel isolated, and I worry my kids will, too. Maybe it’s just that we haven’t found a lot of athiest friends, yet, since we are fairly recent ex-christians. Sometimes it feels like we are maybe two of twenty or so non-christians in the state. I know there’s more than twenty, but we haven’t met them. I worry my kids won’t be able to make friends due to prejudice.
I’m also not sure about being a nurse, or especially an advanced practice nurse (want to be a certified nurse-midwife eventually) in this state, but that’s a whole other story.
Lynn Sellers said:
“Not all Arkansans are ignorant hillbillies. Most of the people I associate with are agnostic at best, and many are aethists, including myself. Please don’t judge everyone by the ignorant.”
True, but a good many are ignorant hillbillies–or rednecks if they’re from the flatlands–and they’re more vocal (read: loud and obnoxious) than everyone else.
GazHay said:
“I thought religion and politics were forcibly seperated in the US?”
AHAHAHAHAHAH! That’s funny. Really it is. You should do stand-up.
GazHay, here in the US we commonly say one thing and do another.
Sara (and everyone else listening),
I truly apologize for the attitude of Christian people (in this area). It’s a sad thing that we Christians can sometimes become so pre-occupied with Evangelism and convincing the non-believing world we aren’t crazy that we forget to follow one of our greatest commandments: “Love your neighbor as yourself”.
I can assure you that I’ve been doing my best the last four years to help Christians around me to just love people (but that doesn’t at all mean I’ve been perfect myself). If we can really do that, no one should have to worry about feeling isolated or fearing prejudice from us. It’s disturbing to me that anyone would feel that way, especially from Christ-followers. I wish that you (Sara), didn’t have to feel like you needed to meet Atheist friends only.
So again, sorry, often times the best intentions can really be hurtful and even hateful (especially when emotions and families get involved). We can seem really contradictory at times, but most Christians I know have nothing but good intentions. As far as we are concerned, all we need to do is present the gospel, love you, and leave the rest up to you. Our job is to simply “pass the word out” & “be an example”, not force it down your throats.
Note: If I had children, I would have the same fears… but about professors and teachers being prejudiced towards whatever beliefs my kids might hold… so I can see what you are saying.
- Dustin Weber
Sometimes vitriol is perfectly fucking appropriate.
Dustin, if all christians practiced what you are writing, the world would be a better place.
And, by the way, I don’t feel I only need to have atheist friends, but it is nice to have some people around who are like oneself.
Atheist:
One who does not believe in god.
Athiest:
Athy to a superlative degree, as in:
“Hey, Steve! That’s the athiest truck I’ve ever seen!
Aethist:
A practitioner of aethism, as in:
“Last night, Joe the aethist got arrested for performing aethism on a goat.”
Whew, only the spelling polise. For a minute thought it grammar nazis
There is no god! Its all in their heads. Christianity is Stupid! Give up.
I truly apologize for the attitude of Christian people (in this area). It’s a sad thing that we Christians can sometimes become so pre-occupied with Evangelism and convincing the non-believing world we aren’t crazy that we forget to follow one of our greatest commandments: “Love your neighbor as yourselfâ€.
Apology not accepted because you choose to enable and follow the oppressive religion.
It’s not just in the bible belt. This is from the Maryland constitution, and this particular article says that is was amended in 1970, and somehow they didn’t manage to take out this language.
“That as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty…” (art. 36)
It goes on to say that we (the atheists) can’t be jurors or hold office (art. 37).
http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/mdmanual/43const/html/00dec.html
Amended in 1970? Well there goes the argument that these are just old forgotten laws that no one cares about.
johnx - lighten up! I hope you are speaking tongue in cheek, because your insulting tone will not convince anyone (not that it is feasible anyway, I just try for fun). Also, you are in the wring blog. The ‘existence of God’ debate is at http://jdallen.org/personal/why-i-am-no-longer-a-christian/ .
At least now you have an easy way to get out of jury duty. What? You want me to sit in court for 3 days? Sorry, I’m an atheist. Your CONSTITUTION doesn’t allow me to sit in judgement over anyone.
Article 19 Section 1 of the Arkansas State Constitution violates Article VI and Amendment XIV of the United States Constitution, and is therefore null and void. If someone ever tries to enforce it, they will find that out.
One nation under G-d. Leave Arkansas if you don’t believe in G-d. I’m sure the state will be better off without you. And please don’t come to Cincinnati!
Yes… I bet the state would be better off without anyone to hold the fundies in check.
My eyes just rolled so far back it hurts a little. :-/
Laws that should be changed, yet never changed. For instance, still on the books in some provinces in Canada, is the declaration of a bounty for the scalps of natives. The good ole boys from England used to go out on Sundays to hunt natives. Apparently it made it into law for the state to provide cash for scalps. The law was never changed.
so when one testifies in court, and swears to GOD on a BIBLE…
you see the problem with being a witness. basically, the court relies upon FEAR of GOD to secure the truth. If there is no fear of God in the witness, then what other means has the courst of securing the truth?
now don’t chide me, here, I am not stupid, and I know people lie anyway- that is just the theory behind such righteous legislation. no matter how much they try, they just cannot separate theology from ideology, nor ultimately, democracy.
So are you claiming that unless someone fears a god’s punishment, they are not trustworthy?
So a lunatic who worships Sebek or Tezcatlipoca is fit to be a gorvernor, yet perfectly rational atheists aren’t… GREAT!
lets say i did believe in this god thing. if i took an oath to it that i wouldnt lie, and then i lied, would it be my fault? or the gods fault?
“Some of you guys are stupid. This isn’t a law, this is part of their constitution; it’s completely different than a law. It’ll take more than a court to strke the provision down.”
The above assertion is only half-correct, and in the end really incorrect.
It would take more than a STATE court to strike down this provision in the state constitution. However, since state constitutions have to be consistent with the US constitution, a federal court could — and unquestionably would — declare it unenforceable.
So are you claiming that unless someone fears a god’s punishment, they are not trustworthy?
where did i say that?
trustworthyness has everything to do with an individual’s moral and ethical fibre. there is no assurance of truth. i, for one, will not serve on juries, because of that, and because i was not put here to pronounce judgement on my fellow human. anyone who thinks they can, puts themselves in a God-like position, which is false and untenable.
my comments were directed at, and derived from, what is essentially the opposing, and i consider ignorant, viewpoint.
read more carefully.
Without having read each response by your good gentle readers, I have a question to ask. Should this question have already been posed then answered, I apologize.
As an atheist who just received notification for jury duty, State of Assachusetts, (no that was not a typo) does this obsolete law make null and void my obligation to report to the appointed court for said jury duty?
By all that is wholey (like my new, but used looking jeans) I pray to the fish I DID name god (he has impregnated most of the females in the pond and they just keep givin’ birth though their “season” should have come to a close long ago) this bizarre law works in my favor afterall.
With tongue in cheek,
Kathryn
Camdog:
Then what did you mean when you said “If there is no fear of God in the witness, then what other means has the courst of securing the truth?” and “they just cannot separate theology from ideology, nor ultimately, democracy”?
Kathryn:
It is certainly worth a shot if you really need to get out of it.
BTW- Is the post you were talking about in the email? If so, I don’t see the problem you were talking about
Camdog:
Nevermind, I had my reading comprehension module set to off.
In this “law”/Constitution” does “gender” count?? I “believe” there are many “Gods” but I personally “worship” the “Great Goddess” (the one who birthed everything that _is_ - A Goddess by ANY name is still the only one - like Jehovah-Elohim and all the others in the “Bible” - I am _NOT_ an evangelical, fundamentalist Pagan - just Pagan!!) Believing in existence doesn’t necessarily mean “worshiping” - look at all those who “believe” in Satan or “evil” as an entity (I don’t, per se) and what about those who “worship” some identity of “evil” like Satan? They usually believe in “God” as well as “worship” whatever they do. Is “belief” the qualifier or “worship”? Another thing, I didn’t see a particular “religion” as qualifier - If a person is Jewish (They have the Torah and their “God”) or Muslim (they have their book and their “God”) or even Buddhist (they don’t necessarily “believe” in “God” per se but may “believe” in “all” Gods or “no” Gods, as they see it or even consider _everyone and everything_ “God”) - is that a qualifier?? I certainly want to thank all of you for stimulating my thinking this Sunday a.m.
And I quote from Article VI of The Constitution of The United States aka “That damned piece of paper” by the President:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”
Arkansas can suck the big green Toadliness.
James, you aren’t crooked enough to get elected anyway.
Does this mean I don’t have to serve on Jury Duty also?
Hey if there are any atheists in Arkansas looking for other like minded individuals, we now have two active groups in Little Rock.
http://groups.msn.com/CentralArkansasAtheistSocialGroup
You are welcome to come see if it’s something you’d like to get involved with.
Take care,