Why I am no longer a christian
This post on Hell’s Handmaiden got me to thinking. I used to be a Christian, at least, I went to a christian church most Sundays. I always felt like I stood out. I felt like people were unaccepting of me because I didn’t “believe enough.” Although it could have been that they just didn’t like me. There were a lot of other differences between us besides just that. But I still went most every Sunday. So the question is, why don’t I go anymore? I thought I’d outline my reasons (while trying to plagiarize Hell’s Handmaiden as little as possible).
- One of my main problems was the idea of the inerrancy of the Bible. This is a book whose earliest parts were supposedly written almost 2000 years ago, and then copied by hand for over a thousand years. And that is just the New Testament. The Old Testament is supposed to be much older than that. People in church would say “God wouldn’t allow his word to be altered” or, my favorite, “the Bible is inerrant because the Bible says it is inerrant.” That’s air-tight logic right there. Obviously, God’s word does get distorted all the time. Even a word for word translation is going to lost it’s shades of meaning. And that doesn’t even take into account the fact that there are dozens of translations of the Bible just into English. Which one is correct? They can’t all be right.
- The misogynistic viewpoint of the Bible and the church. As Serendipity says in Dogma: “Women are painted as bigger antagonists than the Egyptians and Romans combined. It stinks.” From the Garden of Eden to Abraham and Sarah and Hagar to Samson and Delilah to David and Bathsheba. It’s a wonder it wasn’t Mary Magdalene who betrayed Jesus instead of Judas. And that is just the characters. Read the rules laid down on everyday women in the Old Testament sometime. It makes the way the Taliban treat women seem tame. This page skims the surface of the problem.
- The belief that no matter how bad you are, all you have to do is accept Jesus and all is forgiven. And if you don’t love little baby Jesus with all your heart, God gives you the big Fuck Off. Consider these two people. Aboriginal kid living in the rain forest never meets anyone outside his village. He lives a decent life, never lies, cheats, or steals. He dies protecting his village against some predator. But he never even hears about the Bible. Serial Rapist/Murderer, as he is sitting on the electric chair accepts Jesus. Which one deserves to get tormented by eternal hellfire? I can’t accept any ethical system that values the latter over the former. And it is a huge question. Most of the world outside of the West was unaware of Christianity up until the last few hundred years. Even today, the 2 biggest countries are China and India and I don’t think there are too many Christians over there. Are all those people automatically condemned to hell?
- As cool as zombies are, following one is not the smartest idea in the world. Sooner or later he is going to bite you. Of course the difference is that in the movies you would end up walking around brain dead trying to convert the living into more zombies too. Wait a minute…
- Also the idea that believing in Zombies, Ghosts, Angels, Demons, Giants, and Witches isn’t weird.
- The idea that Christians are enlightened but Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Spiritualists, etc are all disillusioned. I’m sorry, what exactly is the difference. If you are going to follow a religion how do you tell which one is correct? None of them offer any more evidence than any other. What exactly is the difference between your facts and their myths?
- People like to claim that without religion we would have no morals. So why is it that nearly every major atrocity we have committed on one another was in the name of religion. The Jewish cleansing of Israel in the Old Testament, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, witch burnings, today’s Islamic terrorists….Coaches like to say that sports don’t build character, they reveal it. Well, the same thing applies to religion and morals.
- In my opinion, the singlest greatest human fault is this idea of “the others”. (And I’m not talking about Lost.) The idea that people outside of your group are somehow “less.” Whether it is decided on the basis of race, gender, sexual preference, geographic location, or anything really, we all seem to place a lot of faith in this idea that “we” are somehow better than “them”. It doesn’t really matter who them is. It doesn’t even really have anything to do with them. It is about you (and me). There is a peculiarly human need to feel superior to the rest of our species. And religion is the ultimate in the us vs. them mentality. “We are going to Heaven. The rest of you will be punished for eternity in Hell.” Makes it a lot easier to harm someone when your god is going to punish them after they die anyway. Maybe you should just go ahead and speed that up for him so he can get to his smiting in time to catch the game later.
I agree with you, however I do know there is a God. I believe that it is my own conception of what I call God but it still is. I have a hard time justifying that one religion is better or more right than any other, however, it is hard to say 99% of the world is wrong for believing there is a God.
I agree with you. I have always cringed whenever the believers have claimed the bible is the word of God. If there were a God would such an ambiguous, imprecise and inept method as human text be used to communicate his wishes? This goes for all the other so called holly bocks of other religions. Surly an omnipotent being could find a better way to communicate with his creation.
“…It is hard to say 99% of the world is wrong for believing there is a God.”
I think you have your numbers just a LEEETLE off, there, pal. Secular humanism, atheism, agnosticism, and other non-theistic mindsets are a LOT more prevalent than you might think, as we slide ever deeper into the Age of Reason.
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts.
According to http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html, about 16% of the world is non-religious and about half of those are genuine athiests. I thought the U.S. had a low percentage of athiests, but actually it’s around 6%, so it’s really only slightly less than the world average.
A large percentage of the population believes in UFO abductions and that Elvis is still alive, so I wouldn’t let majority rule on this one. In addition to the fact that the bible is absolutely riddled with blatant contradictions and inconsistencies (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html), there is absolutely no evidence supporting the existence of an all-powerful diety. The whole question of the existence of god cannot be observed, or verified or falsified according to any of our standard burdens of proof, so what reason is there to believe that god exists?
God was invented by man to console and placate him regarding matters of life, morality, and death, and supported by governments and tyrants alike to use religious motivations to help them keep their power and control over their societies.
Billy, I don’t put much stock in these “how can so many people be wrong” arguments. No matter how you slice it, an enormous number of people are, or have been, wrong. Step back from religion for a moment and think about science; and think about how many hundreds of millions– billions– of people throughout history have been utterly and thoroughly wrong about some basic bits of now common science. Its far more common for people to be wrong than for them to be right.
I think you are way off base. On a lot of your argument, especially since 2 of them are your equation that Jesus = Zombie.
This is an immature way of looking at an entire category of religions. It’s like saying you hate Subway because you don’t like meatball subs. Not all forms of christianity believe baptism is a cleanse all sins program. Like catholicism. Oh wait, is that the biggest form of christianity in the world?
And you say it’s wrong for a religion to denounce the activities of other religions. What? How can you preach “Thou shalt not kill”, and not denounce the killers? It sounds like you don’t like other christians who are immature themselves, not christianity.
This post only shows a lack of understanding in your own faith, and a lack of research in christianity itself.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5519239193881956619&q=carlin
“…It is hard to say 99% of the world is wrong for believing there is a God.â€
According to http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html about 8% don’t believe in a God. And then there are primal, traditional Chinese and Buddism religions which do not believe in a God and account for about 18% of the world population.
Frank Milton:
Your wonderful ability with the English language is, in itself, a proof of the inappropriateness of English to express specific ideas clearly (secretly, I’m hoping that you aren’t actually a native speaker).
UglyShirts:
You are right 99% isn’t correct. I’ve widely heard it stated that it is more like 95%-90% of the world (but, of course, I’m too lazy to track down any concrete research on this). Although, I believe that Agnosticism is generally included in that number - and probably makes up a large proportion (especially in the Western world). As for the “Age of Reason” - that is over (which is a pity, in my mind). If you do some study you will find that since the Millenium we have been living, increasingly, in what is being referred to as the “Age of Experience” - where individuals have their own personal version of the truth rather than an objective truth. It seems to be a generational change - and not for the better. Take a good look around at the world and you will see that it is true (at least, it is true, _for me_ ;-)).
I am a Christian, so take aim and fire away if you need to. I must admit the bible is extremely confusing. I am saddened by the amount of “splitting” that goes on with it - where people split out their favourite bit to love or vilify and run with that. I feel that is where the biggest issues with religion come about - where people grab the bits they like and ignore the rest (it’s a very “Age of Experience” thing to do, BTW). It’s why some Christians hate gays but for some reason have no problem eating lobster (even though the proscription on both is described within sentences of each other in the book of Leviticus). Worse, these points of view are taken without considering the core tenets that Jesus offerred as the “Great Commandment(s)”:
1. Love the Lord your God with all your mind, heart, soul and spirit. And,
2. Love your neighbour as yourself.
If you come anywhere near these then how can anyone fight a war? Or even really have an “us and them” mentality? Those commandments are an ideal - and they are awfully hard to live up to. They are the mission of a lifetime (or more).
As for those not reached by “Christians”, like your aboriginal boy, I honestly don’t know what happens with them. I’m pretty sure that the bible has something to say about it being in God’s hands (I can’t even think how to do a search for appropriate verse). Whether a murderer or someone “unreached” goes to Heaven or Hell is completely out of our hands and isn’t something we have the ability to judge in any useful sense. As for a murderer “finding God” on his deathbed (or in his “death-electric-chair”) well, who knows if it is real or not? I’m pretty confident that if he’s just taking a gamble because the thought of death scares the crap out of him then that won’t cut it with God. Finding God at a time like that would need to be the “most real” thing ever to happen in someones life - or it would be meaningless.
I will not try and tell anyone that Christianity is right! I believe it, but if you don’t there is nothing I can say that will make you change your mind.
I value you taking the time to explain why you are no longer a christian. I value open and honest debate. It is great that you’ve taken the time to actually think critically about what you believe and what you are told (I don’t think too many people do that). I encourage you to seek God in your own way - if you do, I’m sure he will give you what you need to know.
I don’t know what the outcome could possibly be but I wish you well, my friend.
There is no god. period. Accept it, and move on.
Everyone starts out an athiest. What religion most people profess is mainly a function of who got to them first, which is a pretty silly basis for a person’s entire world view, in my opinion. Had I been born in Iran, I would probably be a Muslim, if Israel, then a Jew, if India, then a Hindu. Those religions make no sense to me. Why, then, should I be a Christian because I happen to have been born in a mostly Christian nation? Afterall, Christianity makes no more sense than any other religion. I truly believe that if most people had the courage to consider their religious beliefs objectively, they would ultimately reject them. But most people will never do that because they are afraid of losing their payoff (cultural acceptance, comfort regarding death, a reason for their life, etc.). Of course, there are usually costs for religious belief, as well. Rational thought, tolerance for others, and honest discussion of truly important issues must usually be sacrificed. For me, there came a point where the cost was no longer worth the reward, and that’s why I’m no longer a Christian.
You make some good points about Christian hypocrisy and failings. However some of your points seem irrelevant. For example, the supposed mysogynism of Christianity may be repulsive to you, but that shouldn’t have any effect on whether you beleive of desbeleive the core claims of Christianity. That’s like saying you don’t beleive in evolution because its been used as justification for eugenics and racism.
More importantly, your claim that no religion “offer[s] any more evidence than any other” is also irrelevant. Christianity is a supernatural claim about the creation and meaning of life, not a naturalistic scientific theory. This idea of being “above” material evidence raises suspicions for some; since it seems convenient in this age where everything is subjected to double-blind controlled studies. However most world religions have been mystical and supernatural long before the modern scientific age; they have not all changed recently to escape study.
Conrad: I think if God were invented by man to placate and control the masses, descriptions of Him would make more immediate sense, and not include such details as the Chrisitan’s duty to obey God before human authority. Better explanations might be that God is real, or that he is a myth created naturally for a thousand different reasons over time, including greed, desire for control, desire for rebellion, and the need for inspiration.
You are welcome to your opinion, but don’t you think you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
If you don’t believe that the Bible is “inerrant”, that just means that you are not a fundamentalist. Most Christians aren’t. Your point about “the misogynistic viewpoint of the Bible” is really the same point. You don’t believe that every word in the Bible is “inerrant”. Got it.
But YOU are not an “Aboriginal kid living in the rain forest who never meets anyone outside his village”. You HAVE BEEN exposed to Christianity.
Isn’t it possible to practice Christianity in a way that recognizes that not every word in the Bible can be taken literally? Isn’t it possible to practice Christianity without having a “misogynistic viewpoint”? Isn’t it possible to practice Christianity yet believe that other religions can also be a path to God? Or must you reject Christianity entirely?
Lou:
If I am rejecting parts of the Bible is wrong and accepting other parts, how do I sort out which parts are which? You can either accept the Bible and follow every word of it or reject it. There are definitely some good things I have taken from the Bible. (Forgiveness being chief among them.) But when you begin throwing out parts of the Bible you stop believing in it and begin believing in yourself. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with that, but it doesn’t appeal to me any more than believing in the Bible. At least the people who are doing that are showing the ability to think for themselves.
k9:
You make some good points also. I think I blended together my problems with the Bible and my problems with the Church. (Which most Christians can tell you are often two very seperate things.) But it is like the parable of the fig tree. A tree will be known by its fruits. If Christianity were going to have a positive influence, it would have done so by now.
I can’t just dismiss lack of evidence. If I am going to believe in one thing despite a lack of evidence, I can believe anything I want.
I should note that I am not an Atheist. I consider myself Agnostic. Christianity could be true. I honestly don’t know. Of course, so could Islam, Hinduism or Lord of the Rings. Everything could be true for all I know. I don’t like to put blind faith into anything if I can help it. As themaiden noted above, it is far more common for people to be wrong than to be right. I’m just playing the averages.
Right on, man. I’m in agreement with all of your points.
If you would believe that a storm slamming into a rubble and after the storm we will see a building constructed by coincidence, then you will believe that the series in events that resulted in earth and life is impossible, while this is actually what happened because of God. Think of earth, a slight tilting would make the difference between summer and winter. If there was no god why doesn’t earth just tilt a bit more and the life on earth would be wiped off in no time? Answer, there is a god up there controlling everything, wake up!
okay me bein one of the people who grow up in church now im 19 and think its full u shit i mean i love god with all my heart but every “bad” thing i did was @ or with church. . . Got drunk @ my 1st retreat. . . smokes weed with my fav youth helper and my bestfriend lost her virginity to are “2nd youth paster. . . pretty fucked up i know then sunday the same people who were buyin me and my friends Vodka are gonna sit up there an tell me i need to ask god for forgiveness. . . “excuse me” but FUCK THAT!! church is probably ruined for me forever i know all churchs arent like that but still there will always be that thought in the back of my mind and i know alot of church that are like that. . . so i say the hell with church read the bible on ur own time im shore u will still go to heaven!
Without Faith It is impossible to please God,, for God is a Rewarder of them that diligently seek HIm….. I say throw out the baby, the bathwater and the tub, and inerrantly the True God still be there for those who Diligently seek Him.. God reamins big enough if HE wants to come into the world not just in written word, that one claims is inefficient, then HE will make him self into a human and visit us as a visitor right in our faces to show us HIs real love and perspective on His Godship, anf willingness to become himself what he made us to be,…OHHHH I forget . He did this already. . and proved his GOdship through Witnessed resurection from the TOmb that was under care,and guardship o f the ROman soldiers ……. …. what proof exists!!… I wonder if their accounts have been altered too??? haha..
Well… whether we believe it or not, he says that he is coming back one day to take his saints away…. THIS I AGREE with you… THAT will BE the Proving of who is the ones that TRULY BELieved and HAD FAITH, and Diligently Prayed their faith.. I read a thesis on law of relativity, and accuracy of relative matters,and the outcome is based on the correctness of the molecular and structural components. anything that is left un- organized by either human or non- human progression is CHAOS.
that all things are connected but not necessarily automatically in the proper order. SO if WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES IS TRULY IN ORDER OF ITS DECLARED EXISTENCE, IT WILL HAVE PATTERN AND WILL WILL WILL REPRESENT THE MATTERS ACCURATELY OF THE AUTHOR, AND THOSE WHO WANDER INTO BY “ACCIDENT” WILL FIND IT WORKS, INASMUCH AS ITS INTENDED TO DO>> THe ouTCOME WILL EVENTUALLY BE ONENESS WITH GOD AND HIS LAWS> AND WILL DRAW THE SUBSTANCE OF THE CREATED INTO THE EMBRACE OF THE CREATOR>>
WHAT YOU REALLY ARE STUCK IS ACCEPTING THAT THE THIRD GRADE TEACHER HAD ANY ABILITY TO TEACH YOU ANYTHING. BUT WHEN SHE TAUGHT YOU THE RELATIVITY OF MATHEMATICS IN THE LITTLE TINY COSMOS YOU LIVED IN YOU FOUND THAT 2+2 = 4… and if you didn’t accept that, you were a rel zombie by the time you tried calculus..
WE have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that you take heed as unto a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawn. and the day star arise in your heart.. knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is given by any private interpretation, FOr the Prophecy came not by the will of man, but HOLY men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy GHost. ( II Peter 1:21)
Rest assured that alterance of the WOrd of GOd does come with a penalty, but if you are sincere of heart and seek after him, He will reward
you for it, and reveal his power in your life….. FAIth, by the way is required.. and faith is the spark plug of religion.. TELL ME PRAY TELL ME YOU DON”T BELIEVE THERE IS ACTUAL FIRE AND SPARK AT IGNITION POINT? TELL THOSE WHO HAVE LIVED AND WALKED THIS EXPERIENCE THAT THERE IS NOTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED IN THEIR LIVES AS A RESULT OF LIVING IT!!!!!!
That is the preposterousness of saying THERE IS NO GOD!! that is just my closing opinion, but their is a scripture by one of those authors who died and bled for it, that “only a fool would say in his heart, there is no GOD… I pray you are not in that category, but rather still in the process of finding Him.. I speak IN LOVE with concern… sometimes we need to have someone else be concerned for us, when we know not we are in danger. -end.
I feel more comfortable knowing when I die I’ll be going to Heaven to be with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I don’t know how a person can rest not knowing where they’ll spend eternity. So I’ll much rather believe than be deceived.
Study Christian history. Christianity was a pure faith until man corrupted it. As soon as Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome after he converted, this combined the church with state and struggles for power began. Catholicism (which strangely enough means “Universal”, began the idea of “Christendom”…a Christ based kingdom. Henceforth popes arose one after the other, each having to create a new law or sacrament to stamp their name and justify their position. Factioning arose out of Luther’s attempt to “get back” to the teachings of the Bible. Having said all that, you cannot deny the truths that Jesus had preached. Man corrupted what Jesus had preached. Concerning the aboriginals in the world (past and present), have you not read what Paul had said concerning the Gentiles? Paul stated that even though the Gentiles had not known God, they still had the moral values and basic right/wrong knowledge and therefore were held accountable by that. It’s those that reject Jesus that need answer for it. Do you also deny that science has been proven wrong time and time again, but Chirstianity has never been proven wrong. You cannot disprove it, because God exists and is before time and created time. We cannot comprehend the wisdom of God. To think that man could actually be as wise or wiser than God. With how fallible we are, that would be a terrifying though. Does the clay say to the potter, “Why am I made this way?” How many times have “people of supreme intellect and wisdom” set out to disprove the Bible, only to find out that they cannot and yet become believers. I will agree that you cannot put your faith in religion, or a specific church for that matter, as they are both man-made. But the Bible, however many times it is translated, is still the Word of God. These translations are actually minimal, and changes are done because many words will not translate from one language to another, not because of some “Davinci type” conspiracy theory. Christianity is based on three major principles…Faith, hope and love…and if everyone somehow got back to these truths instead of arguing over such thiongs as whether or not infant baptism is correct or the idea of purgatory, then we would live in peace and harmony. As far as your misogynistic viewpoint idea, women are also held very highly in the Bible as well…Mary the mother of God, for example…Esther, Mary Magdeline (who was actually highly regarded by Jesusfor her repentant and obedient heart) to name a few. Do not let your one bad experience with a church lead you astray. The apostles even warned the early churches of “wolves in sheeps clothing and to test all who say they are apostles so that you might not be led astray”. Paul even says to search the scriptures for true doctrine. I challenge you to study, not from movies or magazines articles, but from real-life texts and testimonies of those who have witnessed the validity of the Bible and the awesome, unimaginable power and glory of Jesus. Then do your postings.
Mystic: That one is really easy. If you know how vast, huge and infinitely large a place the universe is, you will know there are earths where no life happens. Millions, billions, megazillions of them, actually. Only we are not there to witness them. We exist in an earth that happens to support life, because that is the reason we exist.
I myself am a buddhist, by the way. We believe in reincarnation but not God. Afterlives and karma, but not worshipping. Plus people with different beliefs don’t go to hell just because they are different. Yes, codemac, Buddhism does not denounce other religions. It makes sense enough for me.
Had I grown up in your country, I would have done the same: turn into an atheist.
As a fellow “former” Christian, I agree with everything you say. If I sat down to type out a list for “the record”, it would be somewhat different than yours.
The real reasons for most Christians, after you get past the programming & the propaganda, are:
1) They perceive their beliefs have made them happier & better functioning people and
2) They are parts of communities made up of fellow believers
Politics or religion, when it comes to matters of faith, the human thing to do is to come up with a logic for our emotional decisions.
Many Christians just aren’t doing their job. It was once written that the single greatest cause of Atheism are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and deny him by their livestyle. It sounds as if many people on this board have had their share of meetings with these type of Christians.
I once read a document that humorized the self-stated knowledge level of people. High school graduates thought they knew everything, but by the time the same person obtained a Ph. D, they fully stated that they knew nothing. The same should really be used in religon. I’ve studied Christianity for years, and I will be the first to say that I know nothing and have fewer answers about the topic. But, to take a bit from the great Kevin Smith, I have a good idea.
That should be the whole of the subject…..to have a good idea. Is the Bible in its currant form errant? Perhaps. But by faith we hope that it got the big things right so that we have an idea on how to live. Love God and love your neighbor. If someone really adheres to that, where is the harm? They go to church and help an old lady across the street. Even if they are wrong, and there’s no God…..they’ve just wasted the same percent of their life as others waste in front of an Xbox or looking at porn. Still, no big deal.
Closed mindedness is often seen in the religous, not just the Christians. But in all fairness, it is just as often displayed in the often self-described open minded Athiests. Being involved in molecular biology for a number of years, I can say that it is dang hard to actually see things like mitochondria and lysozomes and DNA. I would bet that no more than 2% of Athiests have actually seen these cell structures, but a far greater percentage wouldn’t dispute the fact that they exist. Why? Because it’s in a book. Likewise, the whole of Christianity is in a book.
James,
Could it possibly be that you were not comfortable with going to that particular congregation and that you used it as a excuse to stop going altogether?
I believe that the Bible is inerrant. That is not to say that all the translations (yes, made by human man or the Publisher) always use the same word for their translation. But the Bible as God instructed the original authors to write is inerrant.
There are plenty of examples of women in the Bible who were good, helpful, faithful,loving and loyal. Ruth and Naomi, Priscilla, Mary and Martha and the list goes on.
As for “the belief that no matter how bad you are all you have to do is accept Jesus and all is forgiven”. Well…I don’t know what kind of church you went to (I’m guessing a denominational one?), but you/they certainly did not get that from the Bible. If they or you had read what the Bible says about what is needed for Salvation, you would have seen that the Bible says you must Hear the Word, Believe the Word, Repent your sins, and be Baptized (immursed) for the remission of your sins. If a murderer on the electric chair decided to ask God for forgiveness it is ultimately for God to decide. I doubt he will have time to do all of that while he is sitting on the chair.
However, since we are human and we all seem to have this need or desire to know why? and how? We could ask a few questions to hazard a guess to make us happy. For example: Has this serial rapist/murderer ever Heard the Word of God? Did he Believe the Word of God? Did he repent of his sins? Had he been baptized for the remission of his sins? Just a few things to remember. God is a loving God, but he is also a jealous God. If you cannot follow his directions, you may just get punished. In the old testament God struck down the servant who reached out to catch the Ark of the Covenant as it was falling.( The Israelites had been instructed that no one was to touch it.)
In your scenario, I would guess that no this man will not make it to heaven, but we could ponder these questions about anyone and unless we knew the person well we will never really know the answers to these questions.
The Bible does not spell out everything that we THINK we need to know. For example, I do not know for sure if the aboriginal boy in your scenario would go to Heaven. In my limited human brain, I would like to think that he would. However, whether this fictitious boy (or any real ones that might match his description) makes it into Heaven or not ultimately has nothing to do with my own Salvation, or yours.
For someone who has no problem lacking Faith that the Bible is the written Word of God you seem to have no lack of Faith in your knowledge that China and India have few “Christians”. I do not deny what you say there because I have no Idea, I just point it out because it seems to go against your stated principle of not having blind faith in anything. (Just an observation)
As to your Zombie remark…WHAT?
I am not sure who exactly you are referring to when you say “Christians” are enlightened? I assume you are referring to anybody who tells you they are a “Christian”. I personally have a problem with most of the so-called “Christians” calling themselves that. A true “Christian” follows the word of God and the example set by Jesus. “Do not forsake the Assembly”, “Tithe willingly to the Lord”, Being immersed in Baptism, Avoid the appearance of evil (this one covers so many things) and there are too many examples to mention here. Nowadays anyone who ever stepped into a church once or whose parents used to say “Thanks for the Grub” at mealtimes will call themselves a “Christian”.
If Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Spiritualists, or even anyone who Truly, Truly believes they are a “Christian” has not done what God has instructed in the Bible by the time they die (assuming that they are past the age of accountability, which by the way only God can Judge), then I would GUESS that no matter how “good” a person is, they will not make it into the Kingdom of Heaven. Good works will not get us in. No man except Jesus has ever been or will be perfect, therefore it is only by God’s Grace that any man will make ii into Heaven.
I say no works will get us into Heaven, but there are some works that will ensure we do not make it into Heaven. The only unpardonable sin is Blaspheme. The worst Murderers, Rapists, Pedophiles, etc. can still be forgiven if God deems it.
As to the atrocities committed in the name of religion. Any quack can commit atrocities and say it was because of something religious. This is the way the Devil works. If one person says that he did this in the name of his/her religion whether the act was good or bad, just think how many people like you can then go spouting that all religion is bad and anyone who says they do anything good or bad in the name of religion is not to be trusted. See…how many people were just turned off to God because of that Quack?
It sounds like you had a (some?) bad experience with the Congregation that you attended. My advice would be “Get over it”. I realize there are probably alot of people out there who sympathize with your decision to stop going and just decide that you’ll never know the truth, so why bother. However, I would encourage you to open up your Bible and read for yourself. The only way you can make an informed decision for yourself will be for you to find out straight from the source. No congregation made up of humans will ever be perfect. If you feel like you don’t fit in maybe you need to do something to get involved. And don’t go in spouting everything that you think is wrong with organized religion to a class or group of people. If you have something to say or questions, go to the Elders or Preacher or someone that you think you can trust to work with you to find out the answer and not just tell you what they want you to think without showing you where it is in the Bible.
Just so you know, I now and always have attended the Church of Christ. I have attended the same Congregation for 12 years and believe me, there are times that I feel like I don’t fit in at all. Just make sure that whatever church you attend that if they are not teaching the TRUTH, you get out of there and RUN for your Salvation. I have heard of and visited some congregations that have Church of Christ on the building and yet have gotten away from what the Bible teaches is the real truth because it makes them more appealing to the masses. Beware of false teachers.
I agree with many of your points but I do disagree with the intensity of a few. Christianity itself doesn’t represent a group of people that should intentionally look down upon others for not believing in the same way that they do. I also think that because the Bible says that you have to believe in Jesus, that that doesn’t ensure that you will enter its kingdom. It is so vague though that it is left to the interpretation of others. I just like to give God the credit of being a rational judgement of our character. Personally, I think he knows who is of a good heart, and he doesn’t actually mean believing in the existence of Jesus, but the concept of “Jesus”. Goodness, caring, morale, and a desire to do good I think is more of on the lines of what the Bible’s message was intended to make.
I do believe that many Christians today do unintentionally turn off other potential believers because of our stubborness and inability to accept that our “perfect bible” may have lost some meaning during translation which is entirely possible when translating any book from one language to another. I don’t think it is very logical to say that it is perfect just because it says its perfect. I don’t think anyone would believe me more because I say people should believe me. I also don’t believe the whole idea that “God would not allow his word to be altered”. God allows many things to happen on this earth…..catastrophes, rape, murder, incest……that is his own choice to let all of us choose our own destinies and make choices on our own. He only wishes that we are good because we want to be good and not because he makes us.
I just think as Christians, we need to make sure and accept others ideas, and understand that maybe our own are not 100% correct and just be open to other people’s beliefs, and not to every think any superiority over any one else simply based on the ideas of ourselves. I don’t believe Jesus ever felt that and ever intended for anyone to think of Christians the way that we are thought of to this day.
“Christianity” does not stand for many of the things that this author claimed his reasoning behind why he is not a Christian anymore……but I do believe that many Christians do act in the way that he stated.
-Kristine
God loves everyone, even the evil. Everyone is punished for their sins, no questions asked, but everyone is forgiven if they ask and is truly sorry. Those people who have never heard the word of God and are good people receive the same fate in death as a good christian does, same for animals too. Before we start condemning people of other religions or faiths, remember: ‘judge not, lest ye be judged’ and ‘vengeance is mine, said the Lord’. One of the main tenets of the christian religion is the ability to ‘turn the other cheek’. That is one thing that sets us apart; extremely hard to do when we see those we love and ourselves being hurt.
Be careful who you call a christian though, it is not a badge. It is a way of life, a serenity that comes with knowing that you are loved and completely understood by God.
Tessa,
Everyone is not forgiven just for asking. And animals do not go to Heaven because they have no souls. Man was made in the likeness of God (with a soul) Animals were not.
Good questions. When I was a kid in grade school, we had a study session in ‘religion’. We investigated various religions and discussed them. During these exercises, I started to wonder: ‘did God create Man’ or did ‘Man create God’? I asked for discussion if perhaps Man created his God or Gods to provide easy answers to questions about his natural environment that were too difficult to answer himself. So we had one powerful God who controlled everything, a God who controlled lightning, one for crops, one for the seas, one for fertility, one for the volcanoes, one for earthquakes, one for hurricanes or typhoons, one who constrolled the sun, the moon, the stars. Of course, I was yelled down for asking these stupid questions because I suppose noone wants to question and thus displease the God(s) he believes in. I attend church often but still wonder
I loved reading the comments, especially ones like “Christianity was a pure faith until man corrupted it”. And that if you study Christian history and the Bible it’ll all be revealed etc.
First this tells me that the man that wrote it has never really studied Christian History and he’s never really read the Bible. From the beginning of Christianity there have been power struggles and they couldn’t agree on the most basic tenets of the faith. Those that won the power struggle set the standards but did the right ones win the power struggle.
Read your Bible real slooow and think about what you just read. Take at least a year to read it. You’ll be very surprised by all the foolishness in it!!!
Or try reading “The Vicars of Christ” if you want to read a really repulsive book on Christianity and the Popes. Pretty amazing that Christianity even survived considering the “Real Facts”
It is easier for you to see that life has been created, dear reader, if you study anatomy and molecular biology. There is no way the complex, interdependent biological systems could evolve by chance.
G-d is One: He exists; He is The Reality. There are not two gods.
If that were the case, they had to perfectly agree on everything - otherwise the universe would turn into chaos. Now if they agree on everything, that means one of the two gods is redundant, unnecessary, useless. That would mean that he would not be a god, as being redundant, unnecessary, and useless are not majestic or godly qualities. However, if he was needed then that means the first god is not a really a god either, as someone who needs help is not omnipotent. He would be limited in power, which implies weakness, which is not a majestic or godly quality. Thus, there can only be One G-d.
There are answers to every question that has been posed.
Just remember the Gospel is perfect not man. Look it up @ lds.org
I am an ex-baptist, theological seminarian, Hare Krishna, Morman and more. Your artical is spot on. Religion is one of the largest problems.
Another is being human but I think I’ll stay in that house. Do good to others and yourself.
LN, you are quite right, no one is forgiven by just asking. As I said, you have to be truly sorry. That of course means you have no intention of doing the same wrong again. But, as humans we fail, and fail again and again. To err is human, to forgive is devine. The ability to live your life know that you are unconditionally loved is amazing. If you have not accepted that love yet, try it.
Try faith and not religion, to put your trust in. Christianity should be based on faith not on a Sunday sermon. The Bible that you so callously threw out says, “study to show theyself approved.” You don’t buy a car just on what a commercial says about it, do you? No, you research it and test it. I’m 28 and have been to 6 churches throughout my life and I can tell you that you shouldn’t base what you believe on the man in theh pulpit, but on the love that God sent.
If your right ,your safe– If your wrong OOOOH MMMMY– do you really want to take a chance on it ?
I was choked by religion too. You are right on. I am not denying a God, but it isn’t the nasty one that will destroy the earth. I grew up very dissillusioned being fed that the world was going to end and the antichrist was on his way. It gave me no reason to plan a real life or future. The church I attended, everyone took the Bible as literal meaning. At first it looked good from the outside, but there was everything malicious about it as any social organization will put the most esteemed members up on a pedistal (oh no, they are humble before GOd). I just hope that this world finds peace soon.
I wish James had learned more about Christianity before criticizing it, of course it is easy to cut down soemthing that you don’t fully understand. You should all read the NIV bible, less Old English words, same content.
A few points; The Bible is clear that those who are not exposed to God’s word are not condemned but judged on individual merrits. The Crusades which everyone harks about, citing a violent Christian rap sheet, were a RESCUE mission to stop the murdering of thousands of Christians by Arabs and to reclaim Jerusalem.
Christianity is found in your own soul with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Being someone who had no idea 3 years ago what that meant, I can understand the skepticism, nevertheless it is REAL, no doubts here friends. Christ gives you only three choices, A. He was crazy B. He Lied C. He was the Son of God and what he said, which was written by 3 eyewitnesses, was TRUTH. I have never found anyone that can say, yep, Jesus lied, try it. In history as with court roooms, no one can PROVE things that happened in the past. You can only present evidence. The Bible is written by eyewhitness testimony by people who at the time faced tremendous danger in what they were saying, death was not a fear. Why? They saw Christ rise from the dead and His promise was everlasting life, just believe and know him. For someone to knock something that has changed billions of lives positively including mine, only shows that you have yet to understand and I pray you do soon. Stop bumbling around in this world and it’s lies and dead ends. Love to all, JH
Religon was and is a tool to control people,don’t do this,don’t think that.don’t read this,don’t,don’t don’t.Mind control.And above all don’t question. Little childreen are going through bain washing, going to church 3 times in one day, Sunday school, Bible class,and of course read only the bible at home.Look when you die ,thats it,your time on earth is over and there is nothing else.We evolved from a lower animal to what we are today,PROVEN, not here say ,not no garden,no Adam & Eve.Peope ,THINK use your brain,ask questions,why are Most wars atarted about Religon,Millons of people have died from because of religon,I guess YOUR god must love wars.To me you people are just another brick in the wall.I feel sorry for you.
TO AUBREY…I always thought about that…You know, if there were no God, and I live my life believing there was and then die, I would have no memory of it, no chance for regret, no wishing I had taken advantage of all the world had to offer…I would no longer exist. But for those who do not believe, indulge in all they can thinking that they only have a short time and then die, you WILL have memory of it…you WILL feel regret…and you WILL wish you had believed as you are standing in front of Jesus awaiting judgement. I would much rather believe in eternal life in heaven than only a few years in this world. Even if I were wrong, just having that hope and faith fills me with sooo much more happiness and joy than the thought of impending doom. It is a fact, all you non-believers, that you will die. It is inevitable. This world will be gone…we have destroyed it beyond repair, as we will continue to destroy ourselves. Those who hold an optimistic view in saving the world (which is will not happen) are more foolish than those awaiting the return of Jesus. It is a choice. I cannot make it for you, though I would if I could. Science will not save you…it seems that every new discovery in science only adds to the fact that our time is short. All I can do is pray.
To Don…
How is it that I missed this….it is PROVEN that we evolved from a lower animal? Did I just totally miss that discovery of the “missing link”?
Quit making things up. You can come from monkeys if you you want, I prefer to be created by GOD.
I would like to pose a question; does cold exist?
Aubrey: I have heard that before….If the writer of this article is wrong then God is unjust. I can set myself away from church and be a very moral person. I have seen the most arrogant, selfish ,lying , deceiving people within the church. It is no different than people out on the street or anywhere! I am not afraid that God will throw me in hell. I feel actually closer to God than I was when I was in church trying to fit in with all those dolled up well-to-do people. We are only fragile humans, not dieties that should strive to be perfect and believe a certain way. I like myself better now. I no longer look at people and think that they are going to hell because they are a certain way, or misinformed. How can anyone know everything? It is humanly impossible! SO if the writer is wrong for those honest findings and listening to inner guidence rather than the outside guidence of the church, how and why would God punish?
Also I will add, having children myself and seeing what Andrea Yates did to her children–I can say I understand why she did it. She was taught that the children will reach an age of accountabliity. She thought they would all go to hell, so in her mind she saved them from going to hell by drowning them before they reached the age of accountability. Maybe Christians should not have children because they are taking a chance that their children will go to hell if they reach that age of accountibility (which age is it 8? 10? 16? Does God have it set ?) and what if that kid tries a cigarette or has sex out of wedlock and gets hit by a car the next day without asking God to forgive them?
I am just sad to see all these people blindly “brainwashed” (I know that is quite a harsh word, but I don’t know how else to put it) by their parents and communities to believe a certain way. Some kids have no chance to determine their own belief system, because their parents push it on them. It’s probably not the parents’ fault, because their parents did it to them, and so on.
I enjoy very much the religious debate, and think it is healthy to do so. People spouting out that their beliefs are the right way, the only way have the worst brainwashing, and I feel sorry for them. Humans, however we were created, have reasoning skills, and if we blindly follow what we were told when we were children, or what society tells us to believe, our talents are wasted, and we will never learn from ourselves.
I won’t tell you what I believe, cause it doesn’t matter. What matters is what YOU believe…not your parents, not your community…YOU. You should take a step back from your beliefs and make sure you believe them, and not just cause your parents did.
Well now….no God eh? Then where did we come from? Perhaps God is not a person or an entity. Perhaps God is simply “The Creative Force of the Universe”….and perhaps God or Force invented evolution and created everything through that evolutionary process. Perhaps that God invented ( somehow) us to carry out Godly things here on earth.
Perhaps this is a free will universe where the only Godly events are orchestrated through us not directly from a big guy sitting on a cloud.
Perhaps the various books of the bible are allegories which simply tell a story within a story about spiritual growth…Perhaps we really shouldn’t care if all of those events really happened….perhaps we should look for the story inside the story that applies to our lives and not worry if it is an actual historical event.
Jim
To All,
This sure made me glad I did somestudy and meditation with Jesus. I, just a meer seedling in the field growing.
We all forget to notice who the opponent is, Satan! He is ruling this world. He comes for three things, to steal, kill, and destroy! We can fight among ourselves to satans glory.
The thing we all need to strive do do in this spiritual warfare is to become a disciple of Christ (student). I battle everyday to fend off the opponent. 35 years of my life I lived for me! Jesus came to serve and not be served. We must strive to live our life’s by every Word of God! The Word is God! We all have sinned and sin deserves death! All will be judged! Not by man! Every knee will bow! You can do it now and submit to Christ or you will do it later! The Word does not state only christian’s will bow or only non christians will be judged, all will come before Him. I fall everyday and strive to get better and repent from 35 years of living a sinners selfish life, now I want to live for Jesus and become His student.
Satan was God’s right hand man, all of us under estimate how powerful he is! But we all have the mind of Christ if we open the door and let him in. It is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life and still doing, to turn from my sinful nature and live my life for Christ, I thank Christ for what he did for me, the price he paid on that cross, I know he rose from the dead and was resurected on the third day. And the example he demonstrated for me. May Jesus give us all the strenght to win the spiritual warfare we are facing and will face! You either believe the Bible is 100% true and fact or it is all false! there is no in between period! Thus says the Lord our God!
Ending, I’m a sinner and I’m a christian, I will stumble and fall, I will get up by the Grace of God. Who am I a simple man to even think I should understand God ways, how arrogant of me that I should have a better way than the Creator. I pray for all the saints (believers) and the sinners that we may help each other get stonger thru Christ my Savior!
Amen
The Bible has to be true in whole, or not at all. It’s basis is on the fact that all these things did take place, otherwise it is a lie. Just the same as those who hold that Jesus was a “good teacher”, but not the Son of God. As HARVARD put it, “Christ gives you only three choices, A. He was crazy B. He Lied C. He was the Son of God and what he said, which was written by 3 eyewitnesses, was TRUTH.” If he is not the Son of God, then he was either crazy or a liar…which would not make him a very good teacher. Same goes for the Bible…if it is not truth, than the stories which exist within cannot be true.
right on, Matthew
Reading your writings on the subject, I wonder why did you write this. Who cares why your not a Christian anymore. Then it hits me, God cares. If you didn’t care either way, you would not have cared enough to write this article. This is a struggle you have with the subject. What I find troubling is that you decide to go in a public forum and plant seeds of doubt in others. That is not right.
Christianity is about Christ. People go to church for the wrong reasons. You go to feed your spirit. Just as we feed our bodies 3 times a day, we need to feed our inner spirit more than once a week at church. If we would do that God will reveal himself to us and we would grow in Him. If you don’t have faith, what do you have? As we grow in the faith people will notice because we become by His strength a different person. Christians aren’t perfect but covered with Christ’s righteousness. We sin, we gossip, we hurt other’s feelings but the more you grow in the faith by reading His Word little by little you are controlled by the Holy Spirit. I’m so glad I have a Saviour who died for my sins and forgives and forgets when I confess my sins. We are to feed on His Word and look to Christ not to people.
Lots of you are apparently coming in here to try to get me to change my mind, or at least to make the case for Christianity to anyone who may be reading these comments. (Which wasn’t what I intended, but I was aware it might happen if this got many hits.) The problem with what many of you are arguing is that it starts from an assumption of truth - either in the Bible or just in Christianity in general. Try to consider the possiblity that maybe it isn’t, and then re-read your arguments. They don’t make very much sense.
Some of you sound, quite truthfully insane. Butterfly - I worry about your children. How can anyone condone what Andrea Yates did? You are talking about murdering your children! As Aubrey said, “If your right ,your(sic) safe– If your(sic) wrong OOOOH MMMMY– do you really want to take a chance on it ?” (Which BTW, is about the most chickenshit reason to believe in something I’ve ever heard. Take a chance on what exactly? Living the only life anyone of us is assured of having to its fullest? Sounds good to me!)
I don’t know where some of you read that I said anything about evolution or creationism or there being no god. I can only assume that it was the same place you read that the Bible is true. For the 2nd time, I am not an Atheist. I am an Agnostic. There may or may not be a god. I don’t think it is possible to rationally call it either way based on what I have experienced in my life. As for evolution/creationism, I never said anything about it, but if you were wondering what I think (I know you weren’t) I’ll tell you. First, let me say that I have never really studied this because I honestly don’t give a fuck. I think it is possible that the Big Bang and/or the first seeds of life were created by a higher power (if one exists). I don’t think that it is necessary for our Universe to start that way, but it is possible. I really doubt that there has been any force guiding the development of life on this planet. All of the evidence I am familiar with points to evolution.
First off I feel genuinely sorry for the writer. He’s certainly confused and trying to come to terms with what he believes while trying to denounce Christianity. I think this in turn is justification for himself as to why he doesn’t need Christ in his life. By his questions, I wonder if he was truly a Christian or not and doubt if he was saved (truly accepted Jesus as his savior and trusted Him). Maybe the church he was attending didn’t truly show him Jesus or he had bad experiences there.
Ok, let me address each area you’ve touched upon.
Accuracy of the Bible - Have you found anything that proves it inaccurate? Why is it the best selling book of history? Why do historians and archaeologists use it as a reference etc.?
Yes there are different translation of the Bible, but is that because other people think they can interpret it better than others? Is that God’s or the Bible’s fault? I don’t mind your questions, but you need concrete evidence to declare something false I’m afraid.
Women in the Bible- That’s just how it was. Would you rather have an inaccurate account? It may have not been right, but there was no “moral code on treating women” in the Old Testament. Later on in the New Testament we are told how to treat one another and things have since changed..
On a more woman positive note, what about Rahab?
What about the Proverbs woman? What about Ruth? You seem to find this stuff hard to believe, but if it were easy would it be the truth?
No Jesus, no heaven - We don’t set the rules, God does. A rule is a rule no matter what and there are no exceptions, otherwise that would be unjust. Now what is just and unjust compared to you and me is different, but the Bible gives us the criteria for being “justified” and not.
God created us, don’t you think He gets to set the rules according to how we live? It’s just like having a child, if you are their parent you give them certain rules that they should abide by for their own good. Now the kids may not understand or like it, but that’s why you are their parent and that’s why God is God.
The Bible tells us that eternity is written upon the heart of man as well as His commandments. Why do you think even the remotest of people have some sort of moral code? They didn’t just grab it out of the air.
Zombies - well that’s the great part, Jesus is no zombie. He rose from the dead and is alive today. Zombie implies mindless following while Jesus has enabled us and given us great enabling wisdom and freedom so it’s quite the opposite. Now whether you choose to follow it or not is up to you. God didn’t want a bunch of mindless followers, that’s why we have a free will, free to choose or deny Him. The choice is yours.
Different religions - Yes, there are way too many out there now. Christianity is God’s attempt to reach out to man. The other religions are mans attempt to reach God. Which do you think you’d rather follow? No other “religion” has a risen savior who conquered death and rose again. Christianity is not a “religion” it’s a direct relationship with God himself.
Atrocities - It’s easy to stand here and judge the occurrings that you’ve mentioned, but all things happen for a reason. Now whether they happened because someone perverted their particular religious beliefs or translations depends upon the person. We live in an evil world where bad things happen. And a great many of times the bad guys (satan) are going to make it look like the good guys (God/Jesus) did it.
The idea of others - Well, there are those who are going to heaven and those who are not. How else can you not divide that up into two separate camps. It’s the same as there are those with cancer and those without. And we’re supposed to tell those who have the cancer (condemnation of sin and death) that they have it and there’s a cure (Jesus). We as Christians don’t believe we are better than anyone else, quite the contrary. Look at Jesus, who do you think He thought He was better than?
In the end, the choice is yours. You must decide for yourself whom you will follow. Will you follow yourself and your finite wisdom? Will you follow someone else promoting another religion? Will you follow Jesus? But the fact is you must either deny or accept Him and when you stand before Him you must account for your decision. I’m not afraid of buddha or who ever else there is out there because I know they aren’t God and don’t tell me what’s to come. They didn’t fulfill over 300 prophecies. Try to figure out the odds of that. Fulfilling something someone said about you before you were born, during your life and in death.
Either way, I pray that the truth will be revealed to you in one way or another and that you’d be open and willing to accept it.
First off I agree with some of the things you are saying such as there were people killed in the name of “religion”. But you must understand that “religion” and “God” are two very different things. Religion is a politically structured way to worship God. I do not put God in a box like that. I am a Christian, period. I believe in Jesus and that he is the son of God that died for our sins, past, present and future. However I am NOT a religious person nor do I believe in religion. Again it is just different political parties if you will of how to worship God. Like Democrats and Repulicans have different views on how to run a country and Catholics and Baptists have different views on how to worship God. Religion and God are two totally different entities and never should be seen as the same. So when people say they are religious, it’s not the same as saying I believe in God and worship him according to the Word (Bible) ………..period. I don’t need a priest, pastor, etc. to tell me how to worship God. Thanks.
I truly pity you.It’s to bad you didn’t have enough faith.Perhap when you find yourself pinned between a rock and a hard place you will cry out to Jesus.Your first mistake was trying to analize God’s Word with human reasoning.Second you put your eyes on the people instead of keeping your eyes on Jesus.And third you have to remember what the Lord said about the last days.The hearts of many will wax cold.And there will be a great falling away from the truth.Christians walk by faith and not by sight.Without faith it is impossible to please God.Trust in the Lord with all you heart and lean not on your own understanding.God Bless and I pray you find your way back to the Saviours arms.
There are times where I have doubts about everything, including God. I was raised Catholic but I have not been to church in many years. I think that it is brave for someone to express his/her feelings here publicly no matter how unpopular they may be. I don’t see it as planting seeds of doubt in others. If you are a strong Christian than you shouldn’t be affraid to hear someone else’s point of view about Christianity. Anyone who claims to strongly believe something and then is totaly turned around by someone’s words or beliefs, never truly believed in the first place. I can’t say that God really exists or he doesn’t. I can’t say that the Bible is just simply stories or the truth. What I do know is that there are many great mysteries that we will never solve. In my humble opinion, I tend to lean towards the belief that there is a superior being behind everything. Maybe, it is just so complex that our small minds just can’t grasp the TRUTH!
To Eric Baker
Plasms 14:1 saysThe fool said in his heart.”There is no God.Be not decieved God is not mocked.Whatsoever a man or woman sows they will reep.
It’s not that I have a lack of faith. I just have an abundance of reason.
Lee:
You better watch out, you sound like an Agnostic
I’m in agreement to the statement Lee made about.If you were truly converted you would’nt of left.True convertion can not be moved.Giveyour heart to Christ and stand firm in your belief and you will soon see Jesus is real and Hewill make himself real to you,that you will know beyond the shadow of doubt.
Lee No I’m Penecostal Born again Spirit filled
Lee
So please don’t attack me again. Thank You!
To James Allen
Truthfully, I am not really sure that I am qualified to be an Agnostic.
I am more like someone who just thinks freely and comes to his own conclusions about everything. These are good discusions to have.
Especially, when men are killing other men over differences in religious
beliefs. One thing that I truly believe is that there is not enough LOVE is the world. This is one sad place!
James:
So you’re basically saying that the only way you can be a Christian is if you give up your free will? Isn’t that supposedly God’s gift to mankind that set’s him apart from his other creations? Seems odd for God to ask for it back or to condemn you to Hell. Weird guy, that God fellow
Religion is dead.Christianity is not a religion.It’s a Divine Relationship with God Almighty though His Son Jesus Christ.
Lee:
All I can say is “Amen”
To James
Sorry, but I was not attacking you. I meant no offense. I was just making a general comment about myself. We must all try not to get offended by other’s opinions. That’s where trouble arrises. PEACE!
Yes God gave you a free will to chose between Him or the devil.God doesn’t force His Love upon anyone.Your either a slave to Christ or a slave to sin(the devil) It’s your choice.Nevertheless,your a slave to something.If you are not serious about is issue.Then I refran from trying to reason to you so.Good Luck
You are all so right and that is the problem. You all think you are right . You are aligned with your tribal traditions. These traditions devide you and drive you from one another and you manifest hatred and dislike among your ownselves. What on this earth causes you to hate earth and its highest creation your fellowman??? That is correct, it is your traditional beliefs. Maybe it is those traditional beliefs that need to be challenged. Keep those beliefs that bring you to each other and the earth. The rest are not for you or anyone or anything else. The world of creation is perfect. Creation, all that is created we see as balanced. When do we quit talking traditions and start doing what causes us to come together, and what will benefit our mother earth????? I hear it already the argument is beginning again. Have it your way, but remember if it does not work————— and who has made it that way??Do not blame God, the problem is much closer. Smile and be happy that is the answer really.
Can’t we all just get along? Enjoy the rest of your day folks!
James:
If you cannot be moved after conversion then you lack free will after that point. I don’t see what that has to do with being serious. You know I’ve caught you, so now you’re trying to slip out of it. The idea of a Christian refusing to reason with someone is filled with irony. I’m sure you’ll have no problem with refusing to reason
Wrong God say leave the fool alone.Your not trying to reason. You want to argue or debate the word of God.God tells you what you need to do for salvation.If you refuse thats your choice.I have to leave and do some work for the chuch I got to so please be careful what you say.Thank You.
I saw your story on Netscape.com and commented there but ran out of room there. So I’ll repeat it and add a little to it here.
Belief-based religions are inherently flawed for the very reason that they are based on belief. For those who cannot comprehend that concept you may retreat to your dogma for comfort. Others read on.
Some obvious observations: Belief is a substitute for not knowing. If you have insufficient knowledge you rely on belief. As you gain more and more knowledge you rely less and less on belief. If you have complete knowledge you no longer believe at all, you know. Believing is at one end of the spectrum, knowing at the other.
Many religions state as their first premise that belief in the savior/god/teaching is required to be saved. No path to knowing is taught or acknowledged. Indeed, often it is asserted that humans cannot know, they must simply believe.
For those who are now going to rush in and say they *know* their religion is true, go back to the first premise of your religion and see if it is based on belief.
There is at least one religion that is not based on belief at all, but instead on knowing through direct personal experience. It teaches how to develop quality of mind so that you can see clearly the truth of existence. It is not a set of beliefs; it is a set of practices that leads to wisdom.
One of the first teachings of this religion’s founder was “Don’t believe something because someone told you or it is written in a book. You must practice and know for yourself.” Another great teacher of this religion said “The goal is elimination of belief, for once you know then you no longer believe.”
Clinging to beliefs is one of the greatest obstacles to knowing the truth. Belief in a god, belief in no god (atheism is a belief folks), belief that science has all the answers - a mind clinging to these things is not open to seeing the truth.
It isn’t some new trendy religion. It has been around for a couple thousand years. I’m not going to push it. You can find it yourself if you wish.
My imaginary friend in the sky is better than your imaginary friend in the sky : )
I no longer am a Christian, either, for many of the same reasons you cited. The main reason that I am not a Christian, though, is because I don’t believe in the need for a savior. I think Jesus was real, and I think he had a strong belief system that he felt a need to share with people. Just as many people today do. Maybe he was more charismatic than most. But that’s not enough to make me worship someone. I don’t need a savior, and I think the concept just sets up a victim mentality.
I think your last point, about “the others” is more cultural than religious, it’s just that for some people, religion and culture are one in the same. Separating “them” from “us” is probably a vestige of our reptilian brains.
As a Christian, I agree and find it hard to imagine sometimes there is a God, invisible to us, being, omnipotent, omipresent etc. Why did it have to be that way? Why can’t we just be here for a while and die forever? Well, that is not how we have come about which I found proof through a spirituall relationship with Christ, not algorithms and theories which man’s limited mind designed. Alot of you are aloof and are confident in your inteligence i can see., asking us to consider your side, there is no God perhaps. I think every Christian has done that and with a leap of faith, true Wisdom is revealed. Sound strange, yet positively true. I see so much more now, darkness and light in people situations, how to handle them, guiding principles in my life that allow peace and happiness, all from God. I was a terrible sinner, drug user, often in bars, concerts doing whatever. I repented and it has been sunshine since, why?? Something is out there, go get it folks. I still sin and a good Christian will admit this and NEVER look down on those who do as well. We all fall short of God’s glory. God cannot tolerate sin, this is an obvious fact. In his pure nature it keeps us at arms length so to speak. His solution to our imperfection is to send a son, born of heaven and earth, innocent in every way, to die humiliated although a king. He died to pay the sin debt of all manking folks. ALL. Christianity only asks this, believe, repent, pray (relationship). No trips to Mecca, wondering if you only fed more poor, said more chants stayed on your Knees more you would have everlasting life. It is done with confession and submission to Christ’ living in you, not the devil, there is another choice.
Now, to the evolutionists. If you have trouble believing there could be a God, I have a more fantastic, SCI FI scenario. A huge explosion 4 billion years ago created human DNA eventually. A substance containing more information than all the libraries in NYC., barely seen in a microscope. Inteligent design is the answer. Have a great day, H
Terry:
Us vs. Them is a cultural thing, but it is actively encouraged by religions. Which is why I included it.
Allen your totally wrong… The Bible is clear on this issue: the aborigial and the serial rapist will probably go to heaven. God has way to deal with situations like this.
The answers you seek are all in the Bible.
mpc:
You got any citations?
If you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you are his child. He is not going to leave you alone. He loves you and will bring you back regardless of how distorted your view on Christianity becomes. You are his child. If you didn’t like your church, then change churches. A church that is spirit filled will have a place for you. Remember people are not perfect and there will always be “someone” in each church that will make you feel uncomfortable. Go to Church to grow stronger in the Lord. He is supernatural and will touch your heart without your control. I pray that the Lord show you the way because He is the way, the truth and the life!
Just wanted to jump in and add my 2 cents. In my opinion, both the Biblical origins of man and the scientific origins can coexist without one being right and the other wrong. God did create the universe and he did it through steps which science calls the Big Bang. Again, in my opinion man did evolve, which is a more elaborate way of saying that man was made from the dust of the earth by God. The Bible was written in simpler times for simple people. They would have never understood the complexities of science. I am not claiming to know this to be 100% true but it is just a logical conclusion to the origins of man and earth. Let’s face it, we don’t have the ability to go back in time or to prove or disprove anything from the far past. Lets concentrate on making the present and future the best that it can be for our children and their children. There is just too much hate in this world. We should use our differences to learn from each other and not use them as an excuse to kill your neighbor.
What we seem to be missing in this debate is an understanding that 1. no judgement is claimed on those who have not had the chance to come to know God and 2. as good as anyone of us are, no one is perfect.
Also missing in this debate is a simple truth, life is not fair. Whether a believer or not, athiest and agnostic, Christian and Muslim can agree. The desire for redemption, in whatever form it takes, is also universal. If it were not so, Hollywood wouldn’t exist since a large amount of it’s revenue relys on stories about redemption of some sort.
I am never going to prove that God exist to Eric Baker. Neither is he going to prove to me that God doesn’t.
As for religious institutions, they are run by people and are therefore flawed as any computer programer will tell you. Put not your trust in other people, but in Jesus alone. Even if you believe that the scriptures have been altered, which they certainly have, the overall message of the bible is hope. Whether it took 7 days or 14 billion years, here we are and without hope we are all lost ( and no, I don’t mean the show about the airplane on the creepy island either).
Thanks for reading.
To Jeff Meyers
Well said sir!
You talked about what people say or do but to know God and his word rrequires a personal relationship quit seeing relign through the eyes of others and do your own bible study and find out who God is.
What reason is there to believe in God? Christianity and all modern religions are just the next in a long line of superstitions. The burden of proof belongs to those who would have people believe something. I don’t need to prove there is no god. That is the default position. There are many different religions to choose from and I treat them all the same. Proove it, and I’ll believe. I will no longer base my life on something just because some dusty old book tells me to.
For those who believe in a god, I believe in only one less god than you do. You applied reason to reject the many other gods people have offered you. Why do you not apply that some reasoning to the god you believe in? He/she will not hold up any better to scrutiny than the gods of your neighbors. Let go of your superstitions. You’ll be a better person for it.
Sara:
I don’t think that everyone is born an Atheist. Everyone is born worshiping their mother.
Whether you believe in God or not, you must all agree that there is simply too much hate in the world. Most of it caused by greed, hate and ignorance. Christians condeming non Christians. Jews fighting with Muslims. Muslims killing Christians and Jews. This has been going on for thousands of years.
It seems that destruction is the final destination for the train that humanity has been riding since the beginning of time. PRETTY LAME!
tru dat
haha. On Netscape someone is claiming you are a “psuedo-intellectual elitist.” Congrats, honey, on your new-found elitism. Now where is your hefty paycheck to go along with that? I’ll be needing it.
Are you refering to me?
This is not a advertisment for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints otherwise known as the Mormons. But if one wants to see a Christian religious where all the above criticisms are both addressed and no longer valid then one might want to learn more about them. These criticisms are only accurate on specifics Chrisian groups and not Christianity as a whole.
I wish everyone could read this, not just the cristians or as i like to call them SATANS, but every religion, muslims, jews, scienetology, blah blah.
Why I don’t think the afterlife makes a good argument. Normally, I would have just posted it in here, but this discussion is getting a little unwieldy.
Sara, PROVE that Nappolean existed, prove that pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock, prove that Caesar was emperor etc. No pictures, no tape recordings, only written accounts. Did these things happen? Eye whitness accounts work for the above, with Jeffrey Dahlmet and OJ trials and works with the deciples that left everything, followed Christ and were persecuted for it. Since when do authors write something they could be beaten and hung on a cross for? Not many people have found in history a reason. These guys could not keep their mouths shut. Were they crazy, or confident? You clearly need to read some of the above comments but most importantly the workd of God. For your own good. sister.
These things are so confusing, Sam, were you talking to me? I did like your post, but I was actually refering to the fact that I’m a GOD! The baby at the top of the blog is my biggest worshipper. His sister isn’t quite as devoted. She has a multi-god system.
Satan’s the “father of lies” Rob. Congrats, your daddy’s proud.
Have a good day everyone! Whether you believe in God or not, make it a point to help someone out today.
Later-
I don’t care if Napoleon existed, although I find that to be a more reasonable claim than god. Neither really has any bearing on my life.
As for people dying for their beliefs, 9/11 comes to mind. Those hijackers actually DIDN’T make me believe in Allah, so why should I believe in Jesus because someone else died for that belief?
wow. how did you get so confused on the simple truth of the bible? True, some so-called christians give God’s message a bad rep. I just hope you do enough research to find the answers to your questions.
The soap maker said, “what good is religion? Look at all the trouble
and misery of the world! It’s still there, even after years –
thousands of years — of teaching about goodness and truth and peace.
Still there, after all the prayers and sermons and teachings. If
religion is good and true, why should this be?”
The minister pindered this question but said nothing. They continued
walking until he noticed a child playing in the gutter. Then the
minister said, “Look at that child. You say that soap makes people
clean, but see the dirt on that youngster. Of what good is soap? With
all the soap in the world, over all these years, the child is still
filthy. I wonder how effective soap is, after all!”
The soap maker protested. “But, my friend, soap cannot do any good
unless it is used!”
“Exactly!” replied the minister…
If the god of the bible exists, he apparently hates women. Read these quotes from his “innerrent word.” How could anyone teach their daughter to believe such horrible things?
“Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.” (1 Corinthians 14:34)
“If any man takes a wife, and goes in on her, and detests her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, ‘I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin…” (Deuteronomy 22:13,14)
“But if … evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones…” (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)
“Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her as a covering.” (1 Corinthians 11:13-15)
“When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.” (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)
“Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.” (Leviticus 12:2)
“But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.” (Leviticus 12:5)
“Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (I Timothy 2:11-14)
“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.” (Ephesians 5:22-24)
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
“Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.” (Hosea 13:16)
This is an excellent, well written opinion piece. I have been asking the same questions for years…
I must admit that many of these ideas are thought provoking. However, as a Christian, I have done research on many other religions and found that many of them are unsubstancial when you investigate them furthur. My favorite group to confront about this issue seem to think that they are being logical when they are being illogical. It is this theory and mindset that causes the most people to reject God. If you have encountered any science class through out your education you were forced to acknowledge this fatally flawed theory. Of coarse I am referring to the theory of Darwinism and Evolution.
I say that Darwinism is fatally flawed because the four main reasons that support it fall apart upon further study. The first flaw is present in the Miller experiment. Miller designed an experiment to test whether or not amino acids, the building blocks of cells, could form under the given conditions of the early earth enviorment. He mixed the primordial goo, composed of Methane, Ammonia, and Hydrogen, and then passed electricity through the compound to simulate lightning. This caused amino acids to form which means that life could be made by naturalistic processes. The problem is that he used his intellegence from chemistry to fix the experiment. He knew that this mixture would give him the desired results, but according to Nasa scientists the early atmosphere was composed of Oxygen, Helium, and Hydrogen which would never produce amino acids no matter how much electricity you pumped into it.
The second flaw rests in the Hackling Embrios, in which Hackling sketched the embrios of a human, fish, frog, porpoise, and chicken and compared them at the earliest stage of developement. The problem is that we now know that the developement occured earlier, meaning this was not the earilest stage in developement. Also, to add insult to injury, Hackling ‘cherry picked’ the embrios that looked the most alike and then doctored them even more to establish his case. He went in with a motive and he wanted it to be true so badly he doctored the results t give him what he desired.
The third flaw occurs in the Darwin evolution tree. Where it says that all species today developed from one mother species. But, by archeology, we know this too is also false. This is called the Cambrian Explosion. Consider that you are on a foot ball feild at one end walking toward the other. There is absolutely nothing as you walk towards the opposite end of the feild, with the exception of maybe one or two single cell organisms. Finally, you get to the 5 yard line, then you take one more step. Now everything ever present on the planet shows up fully developed with no time to evolve. It was this finding that made many mainstream Archelogists give up on evolution and embrace creationism.
The fourth and final major flaw, there is still more but there is a lack of time to type it all, Is the discovery of Lucy. With this ’skelleton’ they designed what they thought was an early monkey-man mixture to show that we, humans, evolved from apes. The ’skelleton’ that was found consisted of a few rib bones and a skull cap. The rest was developed by anthropologists with an agenda. The skull cap of this woman actually has the same basic measurements of a modern day woman, as well as the ribs. This is another example of why Darwinism is a farce.
In the words of nanoscientist James Tour of Rice University: “Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.” Also consider physicist Paul Davies who said “It may seem Bizarre, but in my opinion science offers a surer path to God than religion.” These are only a few ivory tower dwellers that think this way out of many. As it turns out very few successful scientists believe that no God exists.
But you may ask “If this is true why are we not teaching this to our children.” The answer is we are, but a certain political party has removed the fatally flawed part from the textbooks. The reason why they would do such a thing is because these very arguments where made in a very important court case to them and they are affraid it will be called a mistrial and a certain ‘right’ will be eliminated. The Court case of which I speak is Roe vs. Wade, the Supream Court case that legalized Abortion in the United States.
As you can now see this is why I am an Independent voter and why I felt obligated to tell this to those that may be interseted. Also this demonstates the lack of knowlegde in our Public schools. You may be thinking, There is no way this can be right, but I challenge you, no, I dare you to prove me wrong.
Sara:
I like the part that tells you how much you can sell your daughters for
No matter how I say it, people will be offended. Thus, I will say it in the most simplest terms possible:
Religion is for the weak. Society does NOT need it.
God does NOT exist. If it did, we would not have to worry about things like the Crusades, the Holocaust, 9/11 and etc.
People need to believe in themselves, that they are capable of behaving like a citizen and not a criminal in any society. People need to understand that it is not required to have a religion to have good morals and good ethics. People need to understand that religion is an option at best, and not a requirement to live a proper and fulfilled life. Respect and knowledge are the key.
Religion is something that is usually force fed upon people who are viewed as “godless”. Last I checked, there was no law against that, and I sincerely hope there never will be. In the USA, you’re allowed to express your thoughts, including your thoughts about religion. However, that does not mean I have to listen to what I perceive is a genuine load of crap.
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. I’m sure I’ve heard that in someone’s religious teachings at least once, and I am sure it was tied to Christianity and/ or Catholicism. However, I find it downright rude and inconsiderate for a Jehovah’s witness to wake my ass up on a Sunday morning - viewed by many religions as A DAY OF REST, mind you - to denounce/ renounce my beliefs and move onto their religion to be “saved”.
SAVED FROM WHAT? Aside from being born ugly, I have never committed a crime. Last I checked, no “god” can cure ugliness. I haven’t complained about it. I’ve accepted it, and made the most of it. Why can’t a Jehovah’s witness just accept that they are annoying people who don’t want to be bothered? I like heavy metal music. Perhaps I should wake them up in the middle of the night so they could “enjoy” a late night jam session or two.
“There is no such thing as not having room or time for god”. What a load of crock. I said it before and I said it again. Religion is OPTIONAL and UNNECESSARY. I don’t pester religious people to give up their faiths. I see no legitimate reason for the religious to pester people of different “faiths” or lacking in “faith” to “convert”. People should focus on getting their lives in order before wasting time on something that has little to no ROI. Hell, the last time I donated a quarter to a nun who supposedly worked in an orphanage, she gave me an attitude for being cheap. Was she a fraud/ liar? Perhaps. But let’s not pass judgement, shall we? HINT HINT.
“God is always right”. Another load of crock. That statement breeds ignorance and closes minds to learning the truth. That’s like praising god for developing a vaccine for some nasty disease when in reality a bunch of SCIENTISTS (often viewed as anti-religion) did all the work and deserve all the credit.
Why do I have this point of view? Because I choose to, just as others have chosen to be “guided” by religion. Because I built myself from the bottom up believing in myself, and not relying on something intangible in hopes that it would somehow save my behind - because it never will. Because I went from the poorhouse to the middle class and god was never there during any step of my journey. Not that god could not have intervened or that I wasn’t paying attention, but “god” was not necessary. I learned quick and early that you had to earn your keep, and I’ll be “damned” if anyone tells me different. Last I checked god never contributed to anyone’s paycheck, save those frauds (and there are PLENTY) who use their god’s name to line their own pockets.
I am a believer in Christ and do practice the Protestant religion, and recognize some points you’ve made but can’t exactly come to your defense on any of them. You seem to take a negative view of the Bible and religion in general and make it into a disease that anyone who is religious has caught and you need to rid of. Basicially you don’t get the whole picture of what being a follower of God is at all. I’m not here to preach but for a long time I didn’t understand God and if he existed his purpose for me or anyone else. Why would he create us only to destroy us and make us suffer? etc… I recently read a book that I’m certain many others have read…”Why on Earth am I here?”…it is a Christian Faith book but it does make you see the whole picture…Everyone on Earth was created for God’s purpose whether you believe it or not, no amount of science or technology could prove otherwise. Everyone while on earth makes a choice to accept God into their lives, once you hear his name you are responsible for what you do with that. God doesn’t expect any of us to be perfect little “zombies” walking around, he wants us to live and experience life and he expects us to do so.
We dont live in a world where God is our main focus in our lives, people are corrupted by money, power, temptation and the list goes on. But God does give us the choices to either make him or other things our main focus and reasons for living each day. He makes it so we feel inferior without him, incomplete, weak, etc…Without him our lives do and will eventually fall apart. I’m not saying once you accept him into your life everything will be peachy keen. But problems get easier, choices are less likely to be hard, and you always have someone there to depend on, to talk to, and to have faith in.
The main thing God wants from us is our friendship, he wants us to be his friend. I mean, com’on, he is our creator of our Universe. Doesn’t he deserve a little praise and respect? Hwe wants to walk with us, hear our problems, have us come to him with every little detail of our lives. He doesn’t hate us or condemn us for being sinful, we do it to ourselves. But he gives us the many chances to make peace with him and let him come into our lives and change things. I do feel very bad for those people who think the can live without God or having faith in something. If there is one thing that God can give you that nothing and no one can give you on this planet is PEACE, and I don’t mean with war, I’m saying with yourself. Everything came from God and everything goes back to him no matter who you are, where you live, or what religion you have taken on. He spares the innocent children and those who have never heard the name God before, those are innocent children(to answer your question about those in other countries whom have never heard thy name!) As much you claim we are zombies wasting our time, you are wasting your time trying to disprove what has been around longer then your existence or any of your past relatives for that matter. Each morning you wake up and each night you go to sleep you have that whole time to talk to God, and see if he’s out there…but you don’t. You don’t could give a rat’s ass to even look beyond your own conceptions of reality. I say if you we chase a God around who may or may not exist then at least I know when I die I do have a chance of going to Heaven to be with my God forever instead of burning in the fires of hell. You at least can savor your time chasing around the newest fashions, the hottest celebrities, and you’re ideas of why on earth you’re here my friend.
I agree Pam, well said.
It really sadens me that so many people do not believe anymore. I do agree that there are so many hipocrits in the world that it makes it hard for anyone to believe or even trust anyone anymore. But there still is a God. There are too many things in this world that cannot be explained from scientist. Even as smart as they are supposed to be, things come up that still dumb founds them. I challenge everyone to really seek God and know him for yourself. Please do not be deceived. I am not afraid to tell anyone that I love God with all of my heart and soul. I will not criticize anyone who does not believe the way I do, but I will pray for them. Because one thing that is very true is that we are supposed to love everyone regardless. And if we cannot love everyone, then we have to really question do we believe as we say we believe. God bless!!!
As a minister (over 15 years) and a theologian (I have a masters in theology) I have seen many examples of how the “church” and “Christianity” have supposedly failed people. I’ve seen people alienated by small minded ministers and church members, I’ve seen people turned away from churches by narrow minded “religious leaders” who have a little Biblical knowledge and a lot of Biblical ignorance.
But . . .
For each of those incidents I have seen literaly hundreds of cases where people have been fed, clothed, nurtured, counseled, comforted, accepted, and otherwise helped by the real Christians. The ones who really “get it.” There are thousands of churches around the country who open their doors to the homeless and give them a place to live. They feed the hungry. They go out of their way to find those who don’t “fit in” and let them know that they are just as much a child of God as the person who wears their Sunday best to church every week.
You see, Christianity is not a crock. Some of the folks who claim to practice it, however, are. For every example of those who have done horrible things in the name of Christianity (and let’s be honest, people keep bringing up the same old tired examples like the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc.) there are thousands of real life examples of Christians who live out the true message of Christianity. The ones who try to show the love of Christ (and not the stupidity of some musguided or just plain mean folks) to others with no thought of judgement about the people they are dealing with.
As for inerrancy, that’s only one view of the Bible. Ultimately, the message of the Bible has not changed (look at the different translations … despite the hundreds of translations availble THEY ALL SAY THE SAME THING). And while the books were written by humans, even across the centuries, when the books are compared to the historical documents from the Dead sea scrolls to the letters of Paul and others found in subsequent years … they are accurate. Does the Bible contain differences? Yes. Is the Old Testament composed of many stories, some from multiple cultures? Yes. But those stories illustrate the spiritual truth of the situation. Example: Whether the universe was created by God forming the earth and placing each star in its place, or whether there was an unimaginable explosion that started a process of creation, God was the ultimate Creator. I don’t think the how is as important as the fact He did it.
And as for the Aboriginal kid living in the rain forest, those who have never been exposed to the message of salvation, God, the Bible, and all that are guaranteed a place in heaven as are babies who die, small children, and those who don’t have the mental facility to understand. God does not hold such things against us.
For those who are quick to dismiss the New Testament (and much of the Old Testament), take this into consideration. Much of the New was written from eyewitness accounts and verified by historians of the time who had no ties with Christianity (though then it was not even called Christianity). And much of whatwe read in the Old can be verified through archaeology.
Don’t discount Christianity based on the actions of those who try to politicize it, bastardize it, or use it for their own warped ends. The ones who really get it and who want nothing more than to offer what they have found to you with no strings and no judgement attached are out there by the thousands.
Peace
I LOVE construction criticism if it reveals my faults. Just an observation since I have seen the profiles many times and many have become Christian believers;
Sara is a feminist first and foremost in her mind which clouds her ability to accept the bible. The majority of the scriptures she posed (which was applaudable) are taken out of context to show women, daughters being treated negatively. Now, the ways Hebrews 2000 years ago dealt with adultery IE: Deut. 22, or the fact that Eve happend to dis obey God doesn’t mean God hates women and no one should agree with this treatment. All People are to have respect and are loved equally by God. Read the rest of the New Testament. Men and women each have rolls according to God, modernizm has skewed this. I have no problem with new rolls, can’t say that conflicts don’t arise from it and children have been affected by looking at society today.
Stan: Is full of pride and wants to continue conquering his world alone. No man is an island. If you try to be, it is a lonely place, no palm tree even. I was self made and used to think like this. Pride made me lose relationships with siblings, parents, mostly girls. I submitted to Christ’s will and asked for his guidance. Hey, it’s not like I am praying to or getting information from a tree, this happens. You will be “enlightened”. No person has enough strength to get through this world ALONE and be peacefull and happy at once. You know what I mean yet Stan?
For those that say that God wouldn’t hold it against the people who never heard of Jesus, he sure held it against the non-Jews in the Old Testament. If God cannot abide sin, then how can he let in any who haven’t accepted Jesus? Seems like that would be letting sin into Heaven. Show me the Bible verse where it says people who don’t hear of Jesus won’t be condemned. From what I remember, it is pretty much the opposite. There is plenty of urging to go out and spread the religion, to save the sinners. If people who haven’t heard of Jesus can go to Heaven, then why even have missionaries? Wouldn’t it be safer to just never tell anyone about Jesus so they can all be saved? Seems like an awful thing to do to someone.
in the end we are all goin to be held accountable for our own actions. not based on what others think or say. but from the word of God. choosing not to believe is everyones right….but it is no excuse in end.
Don’t remember having met you, Harvard, but I must have since you apparently know me so well. It’s true, I am a feminist, although I don’t think that’s a dirty word. Feminism at it’s core is the truly radical notion that women are people rather than property. I used to be a Southern Baptist so I know what I’m talking about when it comes to Christians and women. Many Christians view women as second-class inferior people whose “place” is at home cooking and cleaning for a man. I think I can probably find a better use for my life than that.
And, btw, I’m not just a feminist. That’s not my main way of identifying myself. I would also say I’m an athiest, a wife, a mother of two, a nursing student, a woman, a cat lover, a friend, a daughter, a sister, a liberal, and an escapee from the cult of Christianity, among other things. I’m offended that you would presume to know me. You actually know very little about me. Why don’t you go read your bible and see what a work of evil it truly is? Just because it has a few good parts doesn’t negate the fact that it is primarily garbage.
Congratulations! You have successfully repeated many typical anti-Christian talking points! Give yourself a pat on the back!
On inerrancy: Inerrancy refers to the original texts as they were written, not the copies. The various translations we have today have no impact whatsoever on what inerrancy means. And no, it’s not “the Bible is inerrant because the Bible says it is inerrant.” The Bible is inerrant because its claim of inerrancy is provable!
On the Bible and women: the whole misogynism claim is a load of horse hooey. There are many, many more evil men described in the Bible than women. As for Mary Magdalene vs. Judas, that really does shoot a big fat hole in your argument, doesn’t it? Mary, in fact, was the first witness to the risen Jesus in a day and age when the testimony of women was not taken at face value. Also, the examples on the page you linked to are very typically out-of-context. Christianity has done more to increase the status of women than any other religion or culture that has ever existed. Yes, even more than atheism/secularism. Look at past and present atheistic rule of countries like China, North Korea, Russia, Cambodia, etc. All countries where women were and are second-class (or worse) citizens.
On salvation: God is very clear that it is not works that get someone into Heaven. Yes, a murderer could honestly accept Jesus seconds before his execution and be forgiven. That the worst of the worst of us can be unconditionally forgiven is an amazing thing. And yes, a person who has done “good” works all his life but never accepted Jesus will not go to Heaven. Seriously, if you look at your logic, a murderer could “offset” his sins with “good” works, thus “getting him off the hook” for the murder(s). That doesn’t work in real life, so why do you think that would work with God? There’s nothing we can do to pay the price for our sins. No amount of “good” deeds will make up for them no matter how major or minor they are. Jesus paid the price for us and offers all of us salvation through him.
On zombies: Jesus wasn’t a zombie. The point is just silly and dishonest.
On believing in Zombies, Ghosts, Angels, Demons, Giants, and Witches: Christians don’t believe in zombies or ghosts (the name “Holy Ghost” does not mean a ghost in the sense of a dead person’s soul). Giants and witches did and DO exist. Robert Wadlow and Xi Shun can most assuredly be called “giants” (not to mention giant versions of some of today’s “normal-sized” animals existed in the past). And to deny the existence of witches is as silly as denying the existence of any other religious group.
On Christians being “enlightened”: no, Christians do not, in fact, claim they are “enlightened.” “Enlightenment” is a term in Eastern mystic religions that denotes a state of “higher consciousness.” Christians make no claims of their belief resulting in any such thing. As far as telling which religion is true, test the claims.
On “nearly every major atrocity we have committed on one another was in the name of religion”: untrue. The greatest atrocities in history have been committed by the non-religious. Hitler, Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin, etc. were all non-religious or even atheistic and they each was responsible for the murder of millions or even tens of millions of people. The events you cited - Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, witch burnings - don’t even come close to the level of injury, death and destruction committed by the non-religious. Mind you, that does not excuse or justify those events you cited. Far from it. I’m just pointing out where your argument is just plain false.
On Christians thinking of non-Christians as “less”: any Christian who thinks any such thing is wrong and no such thing is taught in the Bible. Quite the opposite, in fact. We are all fallen. We are all sinful. We are all “less.” Christian and non-Christian. I’m not better than or superior to you or anyone else because I am a Christian. No Christian is.
Congratulations, Jason! You have successfully repeated many typical Christian talking points! Give yourself a pat on the back!
All religion is bogus. Religion is really a combination of fear, myth and superstition. Religion is the cause of all hatred and war. Just look at what is supposed to be the civilized world in the 21st Century.
The US is filled with cultists, mainly the conserative Christian right (or is it wrong?). They put a nincompoop in the Oval Office. A dunce who refuses to learn about other cultures before starting a war. A dunce who uses a word that strikes the fear of conversion into the hearts of the Islamic world…Crusade.
What is the body count attributed to atheists? Probably zero!
The plain and simple fact is, there is no logical reason to believe in god. God is a fairy tale intended to make us feel better. So all the rest of this discussion is pointless. It all boils down to whether you trust your ability to think rationally and make decisions for yourself or if you must rely on a fictional higher authority to take responsibility for you. Religion is a weak, immature response to the big questions of life. It’s a cop-out.
To James Allen
With all due respect Mr. Allen. You are basically saying that a man who in his lifetime never heard the word of God simply because he was isolated from Christianity by no fault of his own, will be punished by God? God would consider him/her a sinner? So the all loving God is now an unfair God? If what you say is correct then thousands of innocent people in the past have been punished by God because they simply had no one to teach them. Isn’t that a bit cruel? Is that what you truly believe?
Scott, re-read the OP. It’s why he’s NOT a Christian, because of the Christian belief that salvation comes only through faith in Jesus.
I think you are missing a major point here. You were a “church goer” not a believer. As the Bible itself says “.. Word Kills…” , if you miss the point you miss everything. As Jusus said “the Word I am telling you is a Spirit and it is life..” you missed the life it offers. All that you said shows that you have no awaerness of the real STUFF. You felt as a ‘outsider’ because you were one. As one of the comentators said all that you quoted were people like yourself who ‘thought’ that they new Christianity and used it to benefit themselves and those around them.
I challenge you for once. Go back home and just read ‘again’ (if you ever did) Jusus’s teachings for yourself. Do not just ‘go’ to the church of your convenience and mislead yourself like so many others. Forget ‘Religion’ and find out for yourself if it is really ’so wrong’ as you just put it in writing. This will serve you as a milistone. You owe it to yourself. Just give it one more chance and you will be positively amazed. Good luck in your journey.
I suppose my dislike of slavery has also clouded my mind to the truth of the bible.
“Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ.”
(Ephesians 6:5)
“Slaves, obey your human masters in everything; don’t work only while being watched, in order to please men, but work wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord.” (Colassians 3:22)
“Slaves are to be submissive to their masters in everything, and to be well-pleasing, not talking back .” (Titus 2:9)
“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. ” (1 Peter 2:18)
You don’t have to go outside the U.S. to find a lot of lost people! Look at all them here on this site. For I too was once a fool asking the same questions, Than you Jesus for knocking on my door long enough so I could hear and open the door! You can see the scripture come alive on this site! As many that shall come many more will not! Thank God for being a patient with us. But time is running out! Look what is happening all around the world! Don’t be a fool sinners! Take the free gift from God!
Jason:
innerrancy: So prove it to me. If you can prove that what are you doing arguing on the Internet.
Women: “Christianity has done more to increase the status of women than any other religion or culture that has ever existed. Yes, even more than atheism/secularism.” I’ll have to take your word for that.
Salvation: Did I say I had a problem with the murderer? My problem is that those who completely by chance have never heard of the bible are condemned to Hell.
Zombies: Believing that Jesus was a zombie sounds as rediculus to you as saying that he was the son of God sounds to me.
On believing in Zombies, Ghosts, Angels, Demons, Giants, and Witches: Someone has been reading a little too much Harry Potter.
Enlightenment: This is what is known as arguing semantics. It is a method used to dodge addressing the actual point made. (10 points if you caught the irony.)
On “nearly every major atrocity we have committed on one another was in the name of religion”: Whether it is true or not, I don’t think you will get very far with the “Hitler did it, so it is ok” excuse.
On Christians thinking of non-Christians as “less”: If you claim that you and your kind are going to be rewarded eternally whilst mine will be punished, you are putting yourself above non-believers. It leads to thinking like “Well, it’s ok to kill the Jews. God was already going to punish them anyway.”
Hey Kal, I was a genuine “born again” christian. Ask the blogger if you don’t believe me. He knows. And yet I am now a firm athiest, even more so than James. Explain that. Since I accepted Jesus as my saviour, will I still go to your heaven? And don’t bother saying mine wasn’t a geniune conversion. I assure you, it was. And no one molested me or did anything to turn me away from church. I simply thought about it honestly and came to the conclusion that the bible is fiction.
Kal, I think I’d rather spend time with my family instead of re-reading a boring old book.
Speaking of which, you coming home for lunch soon, love?
So Jerry B, my scripture quotes are “coming alive” are they? I truly hope not! Did you read that bullshit? Crazy stuff.
Sara,
You need to read the parables. Read between the lines for the truth and you will see we should serve Christ as Master of our lives. It was another lesson to study and meditate on.
You can not serve two masters, you are a slave to sin or slave to lord Jesus
god created everything. god is all good. god created the devil. the devil is all evil. what utter nonsense! all religious beliefs are just wishful thinking and nothing more. no one knows what if anything exist beyond what can be known through science.
Good point, I like this:
Believing that Jesus was a zombie sounds as rediculus to you as saying that he was the son of God sounds to me.
Doesn’t anyone see, that we are all worshipping the same GOD. Different religions have different names for Him is all, but He is the same one and all.
Jerry, I’m a slave to no one anymore, and it’s nice. Try it.
Exactly, wawa
But Scoob, I don’t worship any god.
Never said you did Sara…just in general.
You said “we are all worshiping the same god.”
It is sad how people, in the name of God, condem others and often kill them just because their beliefs are different. That is why we are in the situation that we are today. Yes, the world will probably be destroyed. Yes, some will probably survive to carry on man’s violent existance. I don’t doubt that God exists, I just doubt that most of us are really trying to do his bidding on earth. The majority just twists the Bible to fit into their prejudices and ignorance towards others.
No one here has mentioned how certain parts of the Bible were taken out by socalled holy men because it did not fit with what they believed or it did not match other parts of the scriptures. We are so lucky that those men were looking out for our best interests. They are still doing it today!!!
Sara,
nothing you write can come alive, only the word of God can breathe life into a non-believer. The bible instructs us that you are still lost and you do not know the Jesus I know. Otherwise you would not turn back to depending on yourself, you are fooling yourself if you think you will be saved if you don’t repent and turn away from sin. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only sin that can not be forgiven. One must know what that means.
I’m not worried about being saved. I saved myself from the clutches of the christian church. I was saved by rational thought, which is more than you can say.
Didn’t mean for it to come out that way Sara…I apologize.
Mr. Harvard -
I may be full of pride, but I am still correct. I have not “sinned” by any standard. Don’t gamble, don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t solicit crap, etc.
Also, I do have plenty of friends, allies, etc. and I am even married (gasp!, what woman would marry a non believer??) Believe me when I say this, I was and am NOT alone when I faced and continue to face life’s challenges. I just don’t want or need a deity of any kind to tell me that I should to believe in them for things to work.
Ms. Pam -
I stated that I have accepted life as it is, and make the most of it. I do not harbor ill will to anyone save those who choose to harm others. At the same time, I don’t take kindly to people who try to force me to become soemthng I am not. And yes, it is a matter of choice and perception. I chose not to be misguided and still continue to perceive religion as optional and unnecessary. After all, there are only 2 things absolutely guaranteed in life, with irrefutable proof: you are born and you will die.
My perception is that religious folk must be the ones in constant turmoil. Why else would they panic so often and persecute before asking? Don’t even get me started with examples here…
Hey, Scoob, I’m not really offended. I apologize, I sometimes get carried away by debating. Really gets the blood going.
Very nice, Stan. I’ll be back later. Have fun, everybody.
Re: Why I am not a Christian: Good article. The best way to eliminate this scourge, this barrier to free thinking and control by religious zelots, priests ahatollas and their self serving interests-politicians and business-regardless of religion is to inact laws that make it a crime to teach religion to anyone below the age of 18 years [I did this with my kids and not one embraced religion after 18 years]. The churches and their leaders “Get them while they are young and impressionable” and can warp their little minds early on. Some of us escape, but usually because we read books and watch science programs whose reasoned messages make it very tough to buy into the childish but deadly nonsense spouted by the churches. The Catholic dogma of condemming a baby to to limbo for its parents not baptizing it. What kind of a critical thinking god would do that. Much of the world’s ills stems from such religious nonsense. I am quite disgusted by it.
Sara:You have a lot of anger in undertone. I don’t think you will take anything positive from these people that are taking their time from work to set you straight.
The Greek to English translation in the King James version is not SLAVE it is Servant, where did you get that. There is a big difference. The context IS in the scriptures: work hard at whatever you do with fervor and love to your BOSS if you will, with the same love and commitment you will SHOULD have with serving Christ.
Stop the blasphemy to prove your point, that is dangerous.
To Sara, Scoop and the others,
Why can’t you all face the fact that you seem to be good people with different points of view. Why can’t you all just realize that your differences is what makes you strong and that is what can unite you instead of pull you appart?
Rational thought?…ooooh god I need a scooby snack while I ponder on a what a rational thought could be.
PS Sara
You will bow before Jesus and confess he is Lord. You can do it now or later. When your corpse is rotting to the earth, will your soul have A/C or will it be heat? I live in Texas! We choose A/C. I hope the Holy Spirit can soften your hard heart. No one will forgive you more than God if you ask him!
Sara
The church can not save you, it is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ you need. It sounds like you had a bad experience with a church and you blame Jesus. He is the friend of sinners, come back Sara, He is waiting for you to come back with open arms! I’m sure he wil talk to you in your sleep tonight.
I agree with you, i have similar ideas. when the people decide to be good, just for its own will, and no for the fear to God or Jesus, this will be a better world,I think they have to much work, to take care of each thing that, you, me, and the others make.
best wishes.
Jerry:
If there is a Lord do you really think apporves of you speaking on his behalf? Seems pretty prideful, to command someone to bow whether it is before you or anyone else. If God exists and wants Sara to bow before him, I’m sure he could find a better way of convincing her. I was also unaware of the Bible verse that discusses air conditioning. Sounds a bit like desecration of the Bible to me.
Why can’t people just simply be good, becasue they want to be good. Why is it that people live in fear of God. In fear of burning in hell if they don’t do the “right thing”. Why not be good because its the right thing to do? You guys make yourselves sound like if you knew that there was not God then you wouldn’t care about doing the right things. The only reason why you are good is because you are looking for a reward when you die. THAT IS JUST SAD! I believe in God, but the reason why I try to help out others on a daily basis is because it is the right thing to do. Yes, I do fail some times and there are moments when clarity escapes me, but I am not forcing myself to do good just to get a reward.
C’mon James, do you think Jerry is trying to fool you or if you knew him, he wouldn’t likely be your most reliable and kindest friend. Who do you keep company with. I will bet people who think just like you, they hold the keys to all knowledge. You are right about one thing. We could type until Al Gore does a recall on his internet, but we cannot change any of your minds. God will be working on you, I hope you have the courage to listen and take notice. Unusual things will come your way, for the better I feel. Take care man,
I’ve been having a struggle with religion for a while… I’ve always doubted the bible and most of the miracles that Christians believe, but in the end.. it’s best to look at the big picture and concentrate on how there’s someone out there that loves you for who you are no matter what and wants you to make the most of your life (that they probably gave you) doing what’s right. I’m only 16 and it’s extremely hard to go and choose what you want to believe, so.. I’m gonna stick with Christianity and believe in most of it that I can. I’m basing this on everything I know and believe and I really do think that it’s closest to Christianity even though I really love the concept of karma and other things from religions or belief systems. Just concentrate on what you’d like to believe deeply and what you KNOW is true.
As for that guy, I seriously think he could’ve written the article better. I know, I know. “What do you know about writing?” Nothing professionally, but I’m a teen, I can debate.
The church is not a building. It is God’s people who are saved and worship him. There is no group which is saved because of where they go. Your salvation comes with a personal relationship to God, but we are required to worship him and we are told how to worship him and that takes going to some sort of gathering of christians. It doesnt matter what the name is on the door as long as they do what the Bible commands: no more, no less.
No challenges were being made….
I’m just saying, alot of things are debate-able (talking about the article above, not the original).
I’m sorry that so many have become so wounded by different people in different churches. This is not the real issue. For every person wounded, I can find 100 that has been helped. (General Statement, not supported by fact, but by observation). It seems that you have passed judgemnt on God because of your experinces and the experinces of other people. I’m sorry that somebody failed to express to you the Great Love of God. God did not send His son into this world to condemn this world, but that the world would be saved by Him. God demonstrated His love to us, in that while we were still living our life of poor choices, wrong deeds, and unloving life, Christ died for each of us.
God’s desire is to give us BEST! He gives us BEST, but it is still up to us to choose to have God’s Best or not. Someone has given you poor information about what God really wants for you.
-He Doesn’t want you to have a Sexually Transmitted Disease
So he gave us a standard of Monogamy for Marriage.
-He Doesn’t want you to be eat up with Bitterness
So he gave us a standard of Forgiveness, (Forgive 70 times 7) for an offense.
aubrey Says:
August 9th, 2006 at 7:34 am
If your right ,your safe– If your wrong OOOOH MMMMY– do you really want to take a chance on it ?
So your faith is based upon fear? The fear that if you aren’t good you will be punished?
IMHO, that is a very sad way to live a life, always in fear. Fear makes you do crazy things.
Sorry, I was interupted.
-God doesn’t want you to be a victim of abuse, Physical, Mental, Social, Emotional, or other
So He gave us a standard of relationships that would show us Love and acceptance.
There are many other ways to describe what God intended. I know that over the years God’s Standards have been abused. However, it was never God’s intention to offer us anything but the BEST for life.
I found in my life that I was being wounded by the world. I needed to get away from the turmoil of poor choices. I chose to give my life to God. I didn’t want temporary relationships without commitment any more. I didn’t want the consequnces of being a drunkard anymore. I didn’t want the fear being stepped on by others on their way to the top. What I wanted was a wife that would stay with me untill one of us dies. What I wanted was children that would not be involved in chemical abuse, sexual misconduct, or emotional games. What I wanted was God’s Best. What I wanted was a personal relationship with God that would guide my life for what is BEST. AND that is what I have.
Someone has informed you wrongly about what God wanted and what God offers. God Loves You and wants Best for You.
What do you want?
What would you do with those people who have met God?
Would it make any difference to you if several have reported from their experience that God isn’t too pleased with Christianity either?
Yep, time for something new. Check out some books by McLaren on the Emerging Church
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0787982091/sr=8-1/qid=1155150879/ref=sr_1_1/002-8964940-1532003?ie=UTF8
I never cease to be amazed at those who would try to impress others with their absolute ignorance on any subject, much less the subject of Christianity….come back later when you have actually done your homework and know the facts about the Bible, God, Jesus and salvation. Perhaps then your decision can at least be based on reality, then and only then can you make such blanket and calloused statments. I wouldn’t even waste my time debating the merits of Christianity since you obviously have NO legitimate basis for your comments.
I personally believe that people who believe in religion are in bondage. There is no need to “get right” with GOD, as we are all a part of GOD no matter what we believe. We are a part of the WHOLE.
It is my personal opionion that folowers of organized religions are silly.
Haven’t read all the posts I missed yet, but just had to say I’m not real into air conditioning. It screws with my circulation. My thermo is set to 80, and I’m still cold. And I also missed that bible verse about a\c.
And I didn’t have a bad experience at church. I actually had quite a few good experiences and have many christian friends. We just disagree about god.
And what I’m saying isn’t dangerous just because you disagree with it. Maybe it’s dangerous to the delicate fabric of the fable you’ve concocted to make you feel safe and cozy in a big, dangerous world, but that’s not my problem. If you 100% believed what you say, Harvard and Jerry, you wouldn’t feel threatened by dissenting opinions. For example, I don’t feel at all threatened by you.
First, I respect your opinions and decisions. You have been given free will, and I am certainly not given authority to take that away. You seem to genuinely have thought it through, compared the facts, and weighed the possibilities. You have done your homework, cited examples and listed evidence for support. You have experienced Christianity, so you can speak with authority and conviction. Everything is accounted for, and faith has been effectively denounced as immature, irresponsible and ludicrous.
Faith is, in the eyes of science, the very state of being ludicrous. You accept and believe what is in essence unacceptable and unbelievable. Christianity is at its very core improvable, unaccountable, immeasurable, and incomplete, because at its core is Faith. Faith that God exists, and that he exists in perfection. That his words cannot be subject to inerrancy. That he is incapable of injustice. That he exists eternally. That he is unchanging. etc.
But were his words audibly spoken or spiritually inspired? Does that mean the syntax and vocabulary are inerrant or is it the concepts and meanings within inerrant? Is justice equal or synonymous with Fairness or is God beholden to the covenant made with man? Did the wrathful, vengeful God of the Old testament change to a softer, kinder God in the new testament or was it just the covenant between man and God that changed?
I am in no way, knowledgeable enough to give you the answers you, at one time may have sought, nor am I capable of proving that which is improvable? I can only say that your view of Christianity not be subjected through the lens of mankind’s’ religious institutions. Of course that is asking a lot, as mankind has tried it hardest to throw those very institutions in the face of all who oppose them. I am merely an example, not the ACTUAL truth of what Christianity is. Just as I should no way be the basis of your perception of the truth of Christianity, nor should anyone else. Mankind is not perfect and therefore anything exampled by mankind is subject to fallacies, imperfection, and untrue representations. Church is not Christianity, the relationship is. My actions are not Christianity, the standards we strive for, but fall short of are.
I apologize for any part I may have had when many of you had been hurt by the hypocrisy of Christian men and women, or even a church in its entirety. I wish we as a single Faith could be more beholden to the very truth we profess, but we are a fleshly, imperfect people, and will do the name of Christ injustice and cause others to be disillusioned and hurt by actions and choices we make from time to time.
You are intelligent people, which makes faith difficult. I know, I struggle with my own from time to time. I want it to be quantifiable, consistent, with some sort of measurable sense of truth and believability.
Remember, God wants people to choose to love him and follow him in Faith. He gave us a choice. If we had all the answers, and everything was on the table and was proven with irrefutable hard core evidence, then what kind of a choice would that be? A fool’s choice would be all that remains. It would be as if you said “I choose not to believe in gravity!” or “I choose not to believe in the color red!” They don’t exist, or worse yet, “I know this gun will kill me, and I had the idea of dying, but I’m going to put the gun against my head and pull the trigger anyways!” If God and Christianity was irrefutably true, without a shadow of a doubt, and if you knew that without the Christian Faith an eternity of Hell was what awaited you, it would be pretty hard to choose not to accept Christianity and believe. It’s called blackmail, or at the very least coercion. God didn’t want that, so he veiled it in mystery and left some answers up for interpretation, so that mankind truly had to make a choice.
Either way, you are no less in my eyes. I hope that whatever your course in life it is a blessed one.
Problem of Evil. Everyone familiar with it? I learned about it in my philosophy class sophomore year of college. I chose not to pay attention to it because I was a bible-thumper at the time, and I couldn’t come up with a good answer. But basically the idea is that an all powerful god who was good would not allow evil. Since there is evil, if there is a god then he/she/it must either not be all-powerful or not be good. Christians counter this with “God wanted us to have free-will.” But I have to tell you, I love my kids, and I would never allow them to do something horrible wrong like kill someone if I could prevent it. I wouldn’t say “oh, that’s okay, Rachel, go ahead and kill someone. It’s wrong, but I want you to make that choice.” I would hold her down if necessary to prevent her from doing something wrong and terrible. Does that make me morally superior to the christian idea of god?
It’s amazing how much one person can be so blind. Going to church has little to do with one being a Christian. About as much as going to McDonalds make you a hamburger, I think! The fool says in his heart there is no God, I know that Gid is real because He has changed my life and I continue to experience life-change daily because of the power of God to change a life. One day every knee will bow and every tongue will confee that Jesus is Lord. Don’t give up on God, He loves you unconditionally.
HEY!! When you tell a Christian they are a part of a vast right wing, mass histeria, it is like explaining to John Glenn there is no moon. You are on the outside looking into this thing scratching your heads, what are they thinking, must be crazy. Now, if I check back to this chat and see anymore uninformed, negative opinions of the only solidly founded faith, I will have Bill Gates withhold the checks to you all for forwarding emails over the years. We are all hardwired for God, some are temporarily disconnected. JH
James,
The bible is very clear on what Hell will be like, very descriptive. A/C Mock him if you like, every choice is a 2 for 1 deal. You make the choice and get the free consequence.
The house God has for us beliievers is cooler than anything we could ever imagine. I don’t do God’s talking for him, I’m not worthy, He wants us to spread his words to you so he can go to work on you.
Jerry:
You’re the one making flippant comments about a/c. Just doesn’t seem very respectful to something you claim is holy.
Jerry, you have got to realize you can not scare everyone into believing like you. That does work on some people, but not everyone. I hesitate to speak for James, but I don’t think he’ll mind me saying that he does not believe in hell and will not be bullied into conversion. You are wasting your time.
Thanks for the kind words Duane
http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html
Interesting essay from 1927. I’m reading it right now, so I haven’t finished, but it seems pretty good.
Sara,
I don’t feel threatened, I feel for you. Glad you had some good experiences in church. I’m sure your christian friends see you a the prodigal son. God will rejoice when you come home and so will we. It is difficult being a single parent raising children. I have un obligation to spread the good news and to help make desciples of others.
A/C
Always Christ
Your observations are like mine. I did, however, find “The Essene Gospel of Peace”. In it I found ‘Christian” principals that make sense. Dr. Szekely, the translator, asserts that the Bible has been altered at the Council of Nicia and elsewhere to suit the Church at the time. Go to my web site to see his translation. There you will find the other half of the “Lord’s Prayer” and the original 10 commandments. The were eliminated, according to the Doctor, to manipulate the masses. The original message has merit. Links to these notes are toward the end of the opening page. So go to http://beam.to/heartcenter —
Sara: Your children will earn their greatest lessons from not obeying and reaping the consequences as you have done in your own life. You know the verse, “It rains on the righteous and the wicked alike.” Life happens, God gave us dominion over the world. We are all truely homesick for the true home. If dying is the worst this world has, Jesus gives victory over it. Therfore, deaths about us grieve me for the sake of a person no longer here in the flesh, but we can all agree, they are better off in heaven.
Sara,
Your right about scare tactics, the warnings on tobacco products don’t work most of the time. The warnings on medication bottles don’t work sometimes to. My comments are not scare tactics. I just belive 100% that every word in the bible is 100% true all the time. God does not lie, only satan can trick you, So when His word says every knee will bow to Jesus, that is not my command to you or James. It is the undisputable truth. I wish you all well and you both come back to your Spritual Father.
Consequences? What are you talking about? What do you know about my life? My life rocks! Seriously, though, you are kind of creepy.
And I’m not agreeing that anyone is in heaven at all, much less better off. I’m going to make the most of my life, because I believe it is all I have. You go ahead and waste yours worshipping your personal god if that’s what you want. It’s no skin off my back.
Oh, and the only thing we can ALL agree on is that that is one damn cute baby at the top.
Umm..I’m not a single parent. Why make that assumption?
I think the problem with a lot of christians today is that they place way too much stock in the Bible. Yep, I said it. Jesus spoke in parables, which basically means that he spoke in riddle. These riddles could then be deciphered to formulate the lesson that He was trying to get across, the moral of the story if you will. Is it such a stretch then, to consider the Bible a tool from which we can learn from? Why does the whole book have to be “right” or “wrong?” I’m a christian, but I don’t believe in the literal translation of the Bible. I think it should serve as a tool to guide us to be good moral human beings. It is our arrogance to presume to know everthing that God intends for us that leads us into such a silly argument. Belief in the Lord comes from FAITH. And either you have it or you don’t. Thus if you put all of your stock in faith in the Lord, and not in a specific church, pastor etc., then you will never be led astray. I think that it’s most important what your own personal relationship with Christ is. That’s my two cents.
Jerry B., good for you that you know what you believe. But guess what? I’m 100% sure, too. I just disagree with you. So get over it.
Sara; I thougt you were writing to get a reaction, response, something. Sorry. If you write yourself notes, no one will interupt your killer life. Tru Dat. Creepy
I love too see this,everyone has shown maturity as to there replys, I myself find the initial stament true I bailed out of the cristian faith when I was forced to give up everything I had worked so hard for in order to make my life bearible again, I couldnt even go to work without being stalked by evangelists telling me my life was all sin and that I didint believe and give up to them, my life was doomed for hell. are we afraid of death? I fought for every thing I had, grand children family, a succesful business and every gift that could be earned by man, I end up losing over 500 grand (walked away) just so I could sleep at night and not get visitors stalking me, although I can say there methods were just short of cultish I do not blame the faith even though I still have one christian friend. but I would be more inclined to bust one of those along side the head who tell me i dont believe in my creator. besides who would accept the fact that cowards allowed there spokesman to be murdered and just say he was their new god. holy goast oh yea not supposed to believe in gosts…………… anyway forget it never will even date a christian girl just too freaky!!!!!
haha..tru dat was a joke. And I’m not writing to get a reaction. I’m writing because I was excited that my husband’s blog got a big response and I got caught up in the debate. Debate is a bit of a weakness of mine. Aw, hell, I love a good debate. Who doesn’t?
tru dat was actually an inside joke directed at my husband.
So, you see, harvard, you are actually a guest in my family’s home in a way, now aren’t you? I’m here because this is a big event in my personal life. Why are you here? Just bored?
James,
God did say you could not have a sense of humor.A/C
Besides He had Noah build the Ark miles from water and talked of rain that had never been seen till? Oh yea, the flood that cleansed the earth for awhile.
Rom. 6:23
The wages of sin is death, (1 little sin)
but the gift of God is eternal life in
Christ Jesus our Lord.
A gift is only a gift if you take it.
A gift is only a gift if it’s not all in your head.
Yeah, off the Christianity subject, congrats on the blog, obviously he knows how to get the attention of a few. Netscape had this at the top of the news hompage this AM, FYI. I love a debate too, but honestly, untill today, I have spent about 1 hour doing this all year. Did not know non Muslims disliked what I believe so much. You have adorable kids, Scotch/Irish no dought. Creepy
The pre-christians were the agnostics. There were many sects. A certain greek fellow was to pick and choose what writings were to become the basis for the first “good book”. Mind you many of these writings came from every and any version of religion at that time. And, yes many were of early jewish origin. Hence many of the rituals in modern day christianity.
So, this one individual tossed hundreds of thigns that did not qualify to be christian to him. I guess he was acting as gods interpreter.
Later a certain early pope also 86ed many items from the inclusions of the greek to create the “new word”. Yes, another of gods interpreter.
From then on it was anyones call who did or did not do anything to alter or modify the holy books. Again self rightious interpreters of god.
And today we still have the many in all the forms of media still interpreting what all of these writitngs and so called words of god really mean. In the name of God has so many menaings that we have forgotten that the real meaning of spirit is to connect us to the creator. And in doing so perhaps treat each of us mortals in a caring loving way as in do on to others as you wish others to do to you.
We don’t have this and so we keep on killing and so history will reapeat and so with all that we go on until it is too late and we slowly say farwell to mankind.
When will religion stop killing and separating. I guess when the day comes when we have no more hunger, racisim or hate for that matter.
Carry on…
Yeah, I don’t spend much time on this, either, but it really gets me going sometimes. I don’t think he meant to get attention. This caught us off guard. It’s just kind of cool, I think. Ever heard of OneRedPaperClip? Now that’s really cool. Thanks for the comp on my babies, they are indeed part irish, but also german, dutch, and little cherokee for spice and 100% adorable.
Sara,
Sorry to think you were single parent, I never heard you mention your better half. I glad your life rocks tru dat.
When something isn’t rocking along remember who is trying to get your attention.
tru dat
I thought I was being annoyingly obvious that James Allen, the OP, is in fact my husband. The baby at the top is sitting in my lap right now. I guess I wasn’t as obvious as I thought.
the best part of religious discussion is watching the little brainwashed “FAITHFULL” lose their minds explaining away something they dont understand and never researched…
some basic facts about all religions is that all cultures have them. No culture has proof of them. And they all think they are correct. Religion like sports breeds division and elitism. Neither divisionism nor elitism breed morality or caring for their fellow man. A religiousless person who helps people out of morality is doing so because they empathize with the suffering of other. Religious people, ESPECIALLY CHRISTIANS, only help people because they want a great seat at DISNEYLAND. for them, helping people is what they HAVE to do, even though they dont do it anyway. They are like a child being bribed to eat his/hers broccoli with going to get ice cream later.
Morality has nothing to do with religion and can exist on its own. read Bertram Russell’s “Why I am Not A Christian” for Philosophical insight.
As for religon being true and people believing the bible? People are not very bright. Religon is taught to us a small children. usually any belief from childhood remains fact until death. Fears, Joyful things, relationships with family, etc are all formed at an early age and as we age, like the movie CITIZEN KANE, we spend the rest of our lives romanticizing the past…crying ” ROSEBUD ROSEBUD” as an old man. it was just a sled to everyone else but to him the significance was huge.
Its a common fact that ancient SUMERIA has the first genesis and flood stories written down, before there were evn jews. Abrham left UR, Sumeria, to find his promised land. He took the genesis and flood story with him. Even though it was definitely a SUMERIAN story. in sumeria there were a whole patheon of gods but everyone had their own personal god (guardian angel). Yahweh, abrhams god was his guardian angel.
judaism, christianity and islam are relgions based on the sumerian religion combined with the egyptian religions. the only difference is the one god theory. Remember above? guardian angel?
the religions of the world have intermingled and borrowed from each other and with each additional translation REAL meanings were lost. A Messiah for the jews, and for jesus too as he was a jew , meant the “THE ANNOITED ONE”. Jewish Kings were annioted with oil. The jews did NOT BELIEVE IN GOD MANIFESTING IN FLESH.
The christian idea of messiah is wrong. it is out of context and means something completely different. Read the history study teh context of the time they were in. You know, how elvis was controversal in the 50’s and today it wouldnt be. CONTEXT is key. Jesus was a freedom fighter and claimed kingship over the jews.
he was threat to roman occupation, power and authority so he was killed by Rome. thats why he was called LORD, which means KING…
He was not the first to resurrect, as dying and rising CULTS go back to EGYPT. they are metaphoric not literal. Plus only 2 gospels discuss it at all and the conflict each other.
THE WHOLE PREMISE OF CHRISTIANITY IS THE RESURRECTION AND IT BARELY EXISTS IN THE BIBLE…
The american christian cults like baptist and born again are the worst offenders. these people quote scripture but havent done an OUNCE OF REAL HISTORICAL RESEARCH. the king james bible is the worst translation offender of them all.
bribed morality for a reward from your lord and saviour is like a dog giving paw for a treat. id rather die on my feet than live life on my knees.
S, Paper clip, He traded for Hollywood, got it cheap I see. Brilliant idea, only in America would this work. I am part Cherokee too, my better half. Gotta go cut the grass though but.. two remaining questions, DId you and your husband lose your belief in Christianity at the same time? If not, when, who first? JH
Excellent post, Warmonger. I’d heard many of those points before but didn’t feel knowledgable enough to express them myself.
Roughly the same time, Harvard, but entirely on our own.
Unless you can translate from greek into english, then you have no learning to say that the KJV is errant in any way.
What I am saying is that any translation is inherently going to contain errors even if the originals were correct.
Are you saying it’s inerrant, steven? If you are, then you must apply that same standard to yourself.
Hi,
I am sorry you have been hurt so much by “christians.” Keep in mind not all christians are this way. You have a valid argument. I hope that the points I present may help clear up some of these questions. before I begin I want you to know that noone in my family is a church goer. In fact some of them have the same problems with Chrstianity that you do. It burdens me to see people that I love not believeing in God. Now on to my points
1. inerrancy of the Bible- You are right the Bible has been put together by man. However, the aotograph copy of the Bible is inspired by God not the English Bible we hold today. You are right the Bible does have inaccuracy in the English versions when in comes to context and grammer. However, after studing the Bible in its oringinal language greek and hebrew. the english version stays remarkably true to the orignial context. If you would like to see searchgodslight.com is a good resource. the divine inspiration is found in the origianl language. However, it took God Himself to keep the Bible as accurrate as it has been over the centuries and in so many languages.
2. women- You are right the OT does have a lot of rules and regulations for women and the rest of the Jewish nations over 600 guidleines to be exact. Fortuantly, these rules were under the Old convenant. When Jesus came a new convenant was established. The NT is all about this new convenant and what it consist of. Jesus sums up the law into two commandments in the Gospels. He says, ” To love the Lord your God with all you heart, soul, and mind. and to love your nieghbor (including enemies) as yourself. This comes from a man divided the time between A.D. and B.C. In Ephsians chapter 3 Paul tells men to love their wives as Christ loves the church. Women are helpmates and great assests to socities. i love my wife with everything inside of me. I even help wash dishes
3. salvation- you are exactly right the only we have to do is accept Christ into our lives and we are forgiven. That is the beauty of a Christian relationship over other relgious beliefs. they make you have to earn something, but with Chrsitnatiy salvation is a gift. Let me clarify. James chapter 2 states, ” Faith without works is dead.” Which means that the works we do out of complete surrender to our Father in heaven. that means a person cant really be a Christian and be a couch potatoe at the same time. When a person becomes a Christian. Their motivations go from glorfying self to glorfying God. Glorfying God means obeying the Bible, praying, fasting, etc.
4. zombies- I love zombie movies they are great! The old night of the living dead rocks!! However, there is a huge difference between the two. zombies seek out human brains to satisfy their cravings. A Christian follow God in spite of their craving to satisfy themselves. You are right zombies will bite, but God only bites to get your attenion and to hold you accountable to the relationship you have with Him. Zombies are selfish and also pretty nasty smelling and looking.
5. Ghost- we may not can see these things all the times, but you have to admit. there are some things in this world science can not explain. Also, believeing in Ghost etc. does take faith. Which God wants us to have in Him.
6. other religions- I am not saying I am better than someone else. the difference between thier relgion and mine is mine is not a relgion but a relaionship. keep in mind I am only telling you what the Bible has revealed to me and doing research on what these other guys believe. Unfortuantly, there are “christians” out there that give true Chrsitanity a bad name. However, Ghandi said, ” I like your Jesus, but I dont like your Christians.” It is unfortuante, but if a person did not like the prices in the grocery store does not mean they would stop shopping in the grocery. the so called christians who you stated treated you badly is unfornunate. I am trully sorry for what they said, but please dont quite going to church because of a few bad apples. i am sure there are solid Christians that would love to encourage you as well as hang out with you and talk about whatever. Christianity is about a relationship not a legalistic dos and donts relgion.
7. morals- You are right relgion in and of itself is just as morally corrupt as anyone who is an atheist, agonostic, or any other label they want to call themself. However, as I sated earlier a true Christian seeks a relationship with God not a legalistic system of dos and donts. When a person has a right relationship with God His perspective and mentality is geared to please God. Let me clarify that I am not saying we are perfect. I am defintly not perfect. I sin just like everyone else in the world. I used to have an addiction to internt porn. however, becoming a Christians is a work in progress. God’s grace is freely given to those willing to recieve it. Being saved is not some magical transformation into some zombie or robot. Christians still struggle and still hurt and still sin. However, we recognize who has saved us and ask forgiveness of those things. We repent and continue to struggle through the weaknesses we have.
8. You are right some “christians” do come across as I am better than you, but again not all. unfortuanlty since God has given us His Word and revealed His Word through his Son (John 1:1-6) we are warned of the consequnces of not believing. Not all the answers are revealed in the Bible. Deutronomy talks about that. However, 95% of what we need to know is definlty there. God never commanded Christians to act better than others. In fact Jesus said the first shall be last and the last shall be first. God desires us to be humble and treat others including other religions with respect and integrity.
If you have any other question feel free to email me at lancesudduth@hotmail.com I will be praying for you
Sara,
I do want to mention how much you life rocks that you all need this to bring attention to you.
You are educated o right from wrong.
If you and your husband were not knowledgable on the bible then it would be out of ignorance that your not a christian.
But, “why I’m not a christian” simple: stupidity
when you know to do differently and you go back to doing the wrong thing. Stupid: Dull, lacking inteligence.
Lance, you seem very nice, but should strive to remember that brevity is the heart of clarity. I read half your post and had to stop because my eyes were glazing over. But two thoughts just for fun: OT vs. NT- I didn’t get this when I was a christian and I sure don’t get it now. Why would god make a new covenant? You’d think an all-knowing god would get it right the first time. Also, just because science has yet to explain something does not mean it is not explainable. People once thought the sun circled the earth until science showed them the truth. It’s not very logical to rely on folk tales to explain things just because you don’t understand them.
BTW, congrats on doing the dishes. I’m sure your wife appreciates it. My hubby does the dishes, too, which is very sweet of him.
Jerry, I wanted to write a witty, biting response to your post, so imagine my dismay when I could make no sense of the poorly written thing! I understand though, it’s hard to make a good argument in favor of nonsense.
“Sara,
Sorry to think you were single parent, I never heard you mention your better half. I glad your life rocks tru dat.
When something isn’t rocking along remember who is trying to get your attention.
tru dat ”
Typical religious gibberish laced with the typical christian schadenfruede, “I feel sooo sorry for you (that you won’t be floating on a cloud with me in heaven — ha ha).” Ugh.
As Shakespeare wrote, “The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.” (If you fundies can quote from random books, so can I.) Perhaps if things are not “rocking along”, it’s because of something that you did or didn’t do. “Oh no, the lord flooded my house because I didn’t pray enough. Help me, Jebus” No, you built below sea level or in a flood plain, dumbass.
Or perhaps it’s because it wouldn’t matter what you did because no one is at the helm. “I went to church every Sunday and now I have [your disease here]“. No rhyme, no reason, no hope, no future, no god. Just a short, warm time in the sun. That should be enough for anyone. Only greedy, self-important fools and those who allow themselves to be slaves manipulated by the “master morality” need heaven. True that (apparently that phrase makes things so).
Jesus said ” Knowone comes to the Father except by Me.” He did not say you had to be a christian or any other religion!!
It is sad that the Christian church has failed so many people in the last several decades. I am a committed Christian who thinks that the Church, especially those that think the Gospel is about getting your butt into Heaven have missed the boat completely.
If we as a Church would spend less time trying to defend the indefensible and spend more time following the example of Jesus: Loving God, loving ALL people, serving People, looking out of the least of these; the Church would become a instrument to make the world a better place. Jesus spent his time talking with the outcasts and the worst of “sinners.”
I would hope that while you have left the Church you would spend time searching for God and see how he responds.
Tru dat, gnostic.
I may just have to make that my new catchphrase.
I love the educational comparisons that christians invoke when they can’t even figure out the difference between “your” and “you’re”.
Overheard at pre-cana (if there were a hell, then those four days were it):
“We know that the resurection is true because (wait for it) we are all witnesses to its truth”. Nice. Patsy Cline’s biggest hit should just about cover these folks.
“Jesus said †Knowone comes to the Father except by Me.†He did not say you had to be a christian or any other religion!! ”
Christian gibberish/tautology alert! Spelling/usage error “knowone” which demonstrates slip-shod christian thought processes scores triple bonus.
Mybe we should worship you Gnostic. You have spell check, clearly a higher
a higher inteligence. Keep the self glorification coming.
And the bible is the inerrant word of god because…the bible says it is the inerrant word of god. Love that circular reasoning.
I understand you completely and can say that you make a lot of reason.
But faith is not about reason.
Let me point out that there a three things you are mixinig into one. There is religion, faith, church. All three define you as believer within congregation. But do not mix them up. I am believer and I talk to God in christian way only because it is part of my heritage, but I am not member on any particular congregation. If some other form of worship is more correct than other, I am not capable as a human being to understand it now. But I feel there is a God and He knows what is he doing. I often do not approve all I see, but then, I have to ask myself is this the work of God, man or other, or is this the part of the big picture I do not see… All this question lead to frustration.
So where is the explanation? Voltaire said: there is only one part of the universe you can change - yourselve.
So, religion, belief is only yours and noones other. If you can find a congregaton that is closest to your comprehension of organized worship you are lucky or just less picky… maybe…
But on one thing you are right - all religions when start to be just a tool for men, tend to be the mean of oppresion and inequality. Yes, that happens. Almost always. Only Budism did not do this…
Well, I took the road less traveled, I believe but I bow to no man, I listen to my heart and pray to God to guidance and mercy. But I felt rage, anger and hate doing this… untill I learned to look at the world without hate and judging. Now I am free, but most of the time alone and judged and “marked” as unbeliever, antichrist or something worse by those who find themselves so great and big to have the power deciding whom is God going to love and whom not. I walk my path, and I have never regreted it.
You can believe whatever you want, just, do not hate, do not judge, condemn, or look down on other.
Be free. Let the God judge others as He will judge you too…
I could write a book about what you said and all things you got wrong, not in perception, but in presentation. But, Internet does not have one thing - time… this post will be onlyu one in billions this month… and it will be forgotten, you, I, all this people will never meet again and we will find our own answers or questions to all what preocupies us. So go with peace, be ready to answer for your words and acts, but beware to who you are answering. Live your life the way you feel it is right, but take responsibility, for all you do has impact to all the world and future, regardless how small and seemingly insignificant. There are answers you can’t see, questions beyond our existance. But we can one thing. GO further…
Go with peace and be true.
Ok, who believes in Satan, not Santa. Everybody say something.
At least gnostic is glorifying something real. All hail mighty Gnostic, God(dess) of the Holy Spell Check! Hey, I can prove spell check has improved the world.
Spell check just makes people not care about spelling; which contributes to ignorance; which does not make the world a better place. I call for a banning of spell checking!
We should send Gnostic and Warmonger to Iraq and clear insurgent safe houses. America could not lose either way.
Well, my kid believes in Santa, but I’m not sure I could convince her on the satan thing. She’s pretty sharp. For example, she just told me “That’s quite amusing,” which I think is pretty impressive from a not-quite-three year old.
James Allen is the evil Satan of Spell-checking! He has blaspemed all that is holy and correctly spelled! He will burn for his arrogance!
Okay, so he’ll probably just come home and have dinner, but that can be punishment enough with me cooking.
It’s been fun reading these self-deluded fools, but I have to sign off and do some sinning in some seamy Sodom somewhere. Sorry for the aliteration. Just remembering Python’s “Shintoists shattering sheet glass in the shithouse” irreligious Bells sketch.
But seriously, clearly without religion, I must not have any morals and need to sin. I’m going to get nutty and secretly replace a church’s holy water with Folgers crystals tonight. Or perhaps I’ll stone some adulterers. Oh wait, that’s not a sin. Maybe I’ll spread some stem cells on a Jesus cracker and wash it down with some blood of the lamb. LOL.
Oooh, did he say that? Yeah, I said it. Now come get me, you pantheistic god freak masquerading as a monotheistic entity. You’re no better than the elephant the Hindus have. The Trinity is ad hoc!
I am a sucker for these kind of posts. Every time I see a link that hints at reasons for (1) no longer being a christian or (2) being an atheist, I have to click. It is a disease but…
James Allen and Sara, I appreciate your willingness to publicly state your beliefs. I was not raised a believer, have not chosen to convert, and yet often feel the need to avoid mentioning my stance for fear of upsetting others. Christianity is normative in the US, yet many people seem personally threatened by a lack of belief. I see that in the numerous posts trying to get you to reconsider your de-conversion (or whatever one should call it) and in the “victim” status of many Christians (a conversation for another day). Regardless, thanks for being public. It is is nice to have some more people join my 6% (or whatever the current number is).
Oh, and definitely a cute kid.
Thanks, EMC. We were kind of caught off gaurd by the big response. I told James he needs to do abortion and homosexuality next, lol. Did you hear about that poll where americans named athiests as the people they consider least american and would least like their children to marry? Interesting.
Havard,
That was my thought also.
Gnostic must be a english major. How many spelling & grammar errors did you find in the whole Bible Gnostic?
We will give you the points though, since life must be a pin ball game, tally up the points. You might have to read the Bible first from cover to cover to get them all!
I read the bible twice, cover to cover- how many points do I get?
Sara,
Did you find miss spelled words?
Grammar errors?
OK, I lied. This too fun. I’m not commenting on spelling since I can’t spell a hill of beans. And please don’t let my self-glorification get in the way of the fact that you religious types “know” as much as I do as admitted above: “There are answers you can’t see, questions beyond our existance.” Fine. So these questions and the answers to them are insoluable. In other words, they can’t really be asked because there are no answers. So what’s the point in asking “Does god exist” when it can’t be answered. And please don’t use the bible as “proof” that there is a god.
Acutally, I was just messing around today. I really believe in everything. God, Jesus, transubstantiation (sp?), Vatican II, satan, cherubim, seraphim, purgatory, limbo, werewolves, Santa, unicorns, gnomes, elves, Superman, dowsing, alchemy, altruism, blonde Chinese women, OJ. You believe in it and it’s good enough for me!
As to the clearing of insurgents houses in Iraq, aren’t they “terrorists”? LOL. Do the christian thing and get out of Iraqi!
Well, I wasn’t really watching for those. Again, Jerry, you seem to have been left out of the joke. Get a sense of humor, man.
Gnostic is gone I guess but his pain lingers here Jerry. I keep hearing everyone is upset that the oposing opinion is trying to convert the other. EMC, at least I don’t think you are a victim, perhaps some do. It has been said, if you were in one year to have an opposite view than now, it will not be by the hand of man. However, you are right, Sara and James have courage and I will check back here in the future.
OK, this is like Lebanon and Israel, can the agnostics agree on one point with the meddling Christians? If the Bible was ONLY the Boy Scout Handbook, can you appreciate the New Testament and MOST of the moral compass therin.
Gnostic, what does it say about us that we just can’t stop arguing with these guys? What are we hoping to accomplish? Is it just the sheer fun? I know it’s sure nice to be on the other side of this argument, where all the evidence is. When I was a christian I always had trouble finding anything to support my side. It really boiled down to “umm..the bible said so, yeah.”
Gnostic,
You left out hazings. I think there is a bigger picture in Iraq then any of us see? I agree with you though, the hands of time will reveal what is to come. Please pray for our soldiers and their families all over. They will welcome you thinking of them.
Sorry, I haven’t read the whole bible. Just the parts that help me persecute people different from me and win arguments that go nowhere. Just kidding. I got up to Numbers and started drinking again. What a snoozefest! Didn’t know that the Tribe could eat cockroaches. That was pretty cool (for being made up).
A major problem with christianity is the OT v. NT “god of wrath” v. “god of love” schizophrenia that christians are left with. When it’s convenient, they smite, otherwise they turn the cheek. No consistency at all. Doomed to failure. The brilliant thing for me is that no one ever “proved” that Zues and his ilk didn’t exist. They just went away as people stopped believing. My only fear is that christianity will be supplanted by something even worse. The devil you know… He said “devil”. I must believe!
Sorry to abandon you, gnostic, but it’s dinner time at my house and then I have to go to work, but keep up the good fight! Spell Check be with you!
The Old Testament is Law. The New is Gospel. Christ came in order to fulfil the law on our behalf. He was perfect because we can’t be. That is the idea of unconditioanl love. HE took the nails for YOU. All he asks is that you follow Him. That is why it is called Grace.
If you have studdied any other religion or maybee studied Christianity you would find that Christianity is in itself unique.
It is the only written account where the sun is created after the earth.
The facts are out there all you need to do is open you heart and look.
Sara,
Your right, is amusing(your daughter’s word) to see how others think. Maybe I should say it is amazing. When Jesus was tempted by satan after fasting for forty days, Jesus used the word of God to keep him in his place. It is written that man does not live by bread and water alone, but by every word of God.
That is why we need to memorize the verses and internalize them.
Spiritual Warfare
Sara — “Is it just the sheer fun?” Yes. And a release. When people say stuff like “god works in mysterious ways”, it’s sometimes not appropriate to laugh in their faces. It feels so good to just argue without fear of social persecution. Then again, if the right wing took over, found my IP address from these notes and gave me a little strappado (look that one up!), it would surprise me less than if a burning bush started talking to me.
Jerry — “Please pray for our soldiers and their families all over. They will welcome you thinking of them.” Intercessory and petitionary prayer have been proven recently to have adverse effects on the target. It could be worse if we do pray. What if the Sunnis are actually closer to the truth? Just kidding. Everybody knows that the Druze have a lock!
Dave –
“It is the only written account where the sun is created after the earth.
The facts are out there all you need to do is open you heart and look. ”
More christian gibberish/tautology. ALERT!
Put down the bible for a sec, read Joseph Campbell’s Power of Myth and you’ll see that the christian mythos is ubiquitous throughout the world and in history. The facts are out there all you need to do is open you heart and look (at another source)!
“If you have studdied any other religion or maybee studied Christianity you would find that Christianity is in itself unique.” I have, it’s just that I found the anti-religious arguments to be more compelling. And it’s not unique at all. It has stolen so much from pre-christian paganism, it’s ridiculous. Now, Raelianism. THAT’s different!
Well I guess Mork from Ork will be the next. nan nu nan nu!
Thanks for the sense of humor Sara. I’m slow
A reborn christian is a sinner as yourself and me. As a christian I stumble often. I know I can never live up to God’s standard, since he can not except sin. So I will never live up to human standards as they judge us christians when we fall. As Mel Gibson did.
But forgive and move on and push toward the mark.
Becoming more Christlike each day.
“That is why we need to memorize the verses and internalize them.”
Sounds like Asperger’s syndrome to me.
Although I question your logic, I respect your drive to be more christ-like (which I assume to mean “good person”) if that is your desire. In your musings on Iraqi, remember “Thou shalt not kill”. I don’t think that there’s a caveat “unless that sonofabitch is a Sunni/Shi’a”.
Live long and prosper.
Sara, too true on the “atheists make bad in-laws” tip. It was bad enough for my husband’s very religious family that I am an over-educated Yankee who studies dead languages no one has heard of, we chose not to tell the other part yet. I am gearing up for the battle to start once we have kids. (”No, honey, just because Grandma says your mommy is going to hell doesn’t mean that I am going to.”)
Harvard, nah I am not a victim. I get worried when people want to institutionalize religion and claim victim status for themselves when others disagree.
The biggest draw to these conversations and the biggest problem with them, is that there is no convincing the other side. As a translator, I know that meaning is lost (and, in sometimes very strange ways, gained) in the act of translation. Thus, no inerrancy. So the decision about what to keep and what to lose becomes one of personal choice. However, this does not change the faith that others have in a given text. I may know that Harvard, Jerry B, etc are wrong in some of the details but I cannot convince them of this because they have faith that they are right.
GnosticGospels has the right idea — sometimes it is just fun to argue without public censure.
I kenew live long and prosper was coming.
LOL
God has destroyed many disobiedent people in the world. David and Goliath? Who are we to question hismaster plan
JUst meer humans.
You have many errors: http://www.Bayith-YHVH.org
Of course. That’s me equating religion with science fiction/fantasy. Just a little joke. You’re no C.S. Lewis, but still I can’t argue with you, since as Swift said,
“It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”
You are arguing with faith and I am arguing with reason which creates an impassable chasm between our modes of thought. There is no further use for discourse but it’s been entertaining. Dinner time. I’m gonna eat me some christians! Just kidding! I’ve got some Mormons marinating in the fridge.
Lets not forget the bias of this.
I’ll admit to it ffirst that mine is biased
However, Gnostic, the book that Joseph Campbell wrote is also biased to his point of view as are your views and any other.
that being said PROVE to me the Bible is wrong.
Oh wait….
You can’t
On that same bias note
Eveloution science is biased against Chirstianity.
So most scietists who support it will be agaist Christianity.
I could not find anything useful on the site you posted?
exactly what r u referring too? as errors?
This written debate will not persuade many, if any, to change their position. So, if that is what most are trying to do, it will not work.
Next, religion, the theory and the practice, is, aside from being personal, is so very complicated.
One viewpoint, I like to use as a Christian is this — if I have a choice to believe in a standard of goodness and an everlasting life as opposed to no higher standards and when you die it’s over — then I choose for the tenents of Christianity, not others, and I believe there are great truths in virtually all of the other religions, it’s just not one’s I choose to believe in for me!
I forgot to add to my last comment
Creation science is biased for Chirstianity and is recognized as a real science by the United States Supreme Court and the Department of Education.
I agree with her, but I can truthfully say “There is NO ‘God’.”, because the very concept is mutually exclusive with known objective reality.
Contrary to what we have been taught, one CAN prove a negative. We do it every day by recognizing that a concept is mutually exclusive with a known reality. The human animal has a natural ability to recognize relationships and discriminate between the real and the imagined. Every discovery wrought by the ‘Scientific Method’ has followed the the trail of OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. We discover what does NOT exist by gaining an understanding of what DOES!
However, and also contrary to popular belief, the foundation of the Universe has been found. The fundamental particle, the smallest unit volume Nature allows, was discovered over a quarter century ago by a retired engineer from General Electric Co. This discovery is now open to anyone in two books, “Analytic MetaPhysics” (structure below the level of the Atom and the ‘Primary Particles’) and “Epilogue”, both by R. Stewart Hall, the engineer who did it. In other words, we now know what the Universe is and how it works!
There is no ‘magic’ or ’supernatural’ in Nature. Physical structure is primary to any further existence. Without physical structaure there would be nothing to maintain organization. The Universe is a continuum of endless ongoing development, degeneration and renewal through gravitational recompression. This is why, when we peer into deep space, we see only galaxies and the debris of galaxies. These gravitational ’sinks’ represent the largest organized systems of matter that can exist. There was no ‘Big Bang’, only endless lesser ‘bangs’. The largest ‘bang’ is galaxy scale. These are the main renewal mechanisms of the Universe.
Unfortunately, throughout history, populations have been controlled and exploited by instilled and instituted delusion. This allows the individual to be able to work and be productive while suppressing reasoning and knowledge, keeping individual function as ‘chattle’ of the State.
Sapien
Sapien
I have a question for you
If it takes bilibos of years for the light to get here, why would we see the decay and or debris of galaxies, then we should see the new forming. The young glaxies have not aged to that point,
Read this it might help
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v25/i3/galaxies.asp
You were never a christian you were just religious. when you truly come to know Jeusus you will be saved. God made his word simple enough for even a child or a mentalyy retraded person to accept Christ. We must come to him by FAITH and not by physical evidence. Even some people who saw physical evidence don’t believe. Ask Jesus t reveal himself to you and help you regardless of what you see other do. We are all responsible for our own deciions good or bad.
misogynism……..!
If you look at science and what it tells us about the big bang, then you have to consider this, where did all of this energy come from? well my friends, we all know that something cannot come from nothing, this energy that was emmitted from the big bang had to be created. 40 % of scientists believe in God, a supreme being, a creator. It is so ignorant to say that we came from nothing. As we evolved into intelligent beings, God presented himself to us, homo erectus or neandrathals couldn’t have understood the phenomena and power of such a supreme being so God presented himself to us and gave us commands, and if we follow these commands wich will prolong human existence, then our existence will prosper in the future.
Their are a lot of un-answered questions in the universe and on earth, but how can anybody believe that such a vast expanding Universe came from nothing, it is illogical to think that. To conclude with everybody, I just wanted to say that even Albert Einstein said that he believed in a creator, a creator who finely tuned the universe, an impersonal God who shows his existence in what exists. To put it short, the concept of Energy is God.
Check out the big word!
For some reason i don’t think that God hates women….
Read the other blogs.
I don’t want to retype what some one else has already done.
But as a quick recap. Read about Ruth and Mary Magdaline.
If you are afraid of being punished for sins on this earth, then it is really faith that you have or fear?
If there is no physical evidence, then how is faith a rational decision? It isn’t. Hence, religous people are insane.
Yes, we are all responsible for our decisions. But, one doesn’t need a religon to tell him what is good and bad. One can merely ask himself how he would feel if x or y happened to him and act accordingly.
I think a good reference is Sam Harris’ “The End of Faith”.
Theology is inherently divisive. If you believe in a religion that is “right” that makes you better than people who believe in a different religion.
There is something debasing about a faith whose mark is so high that all that follow it are doomed to failure.
Hi,
I was reading responses to this story and found them very intriguing. It is good to have a discussion and give points of view. I would like to add mine. I am a Catholic Christian. The Catholic Church is apostolic which means it goes back to the apostles of Jesus. He told Peter, “You are the Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church.” Protestantism began (in protest of some of the human failings happening at the time) long after the Church was instituted by Christ . Peter was the first Pope. Yes, there have been problems in the Church, but Jesus said, “…the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” Meaning the Church will stand no matter what, and it has for 2000 years plus.
This does not mean that those who believe differently will be damned. God is the only judge of people. We can judge the behavior but not the person. (Just like we don’t say our children are bad, but their behavior at certain times is bad.) So let’s let God be the judge. If people have not heard about Jesus, He won’t expect them to know and believe in Him. But He did leave the apostles with the words, “Go and proclaim the Good News to all Nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” Of course, this must be done in a loving manner and then the people themselves will decide. When the apostles preached after Jesus’ death, it was done peacefully not forcefully. They were the ones murdered for their beliefs not the other way around!
Also, Catholicism includes faith AND reason. The Bible was not written for several hundred years, so the Word was preached through witnessed accounts and traditions were also involved. In fact, Paul told people to “hold fast to the traditions we have given you” (paraphrased). In addition, not everything is written in the Bible (even the Bible states that if it was, there wouldn’t be room to hold everything). He sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost to fill the apostles with the knowledge of the Truth to be able to continue His mission. That is why on matters of faith (only), the Pope is infallible. If you read some of the early Church fathers’ writings, you will have very important facts and knowledge about the early Church. (i.e. St. Augustine)
In addition, Catholic teaching includes Purgatory. Isn’t this the most reasonable thing to believe of a loving God. He gives people another chance to get to Heaven. That’s what I would expect from a loving God. If you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you will be informed about why the Catholic Church teaches what it does.
Therefore before anyone disavows God, religion, etc., they should really think (reason) and learn about it. He is visible everywhere in the beauty of the world. Even Darwin stated in his writings that it is impossible to believe that the human eye could be made without a higher power behind it. Just think about this…If a watch were on a beach all broken up in pieces, it could not come together by itself, or a jet plane in a junkyard all taken apart, could not put itself together. A watchmaker and a builder of planes would have to do it. Therefore we could not come from nothing either; a Creator had to create us, just a sculptor has to create the scupture and the artist has to create the painting.
Pasquale said something to the effect that it is better to believe because if our faith is true, we have everything to gain; BUT if we don’t believe, we have a lot to lose. I wouldn’t risk taking that chance!
God bless.
So, I’m God (you can’t prove me wrong, so please don’t argue with me), and here’s how I separate the wheat from the chaff: I send down good ‘ol boys like Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, the rev. Moon, Jimmie Jones, Davie Koresh…make ‘em charismatic, give ‘em some words of wisdom mixed in with some real crazy b.s.. All those folks who let themselves be sucked into the logic trap of ‘I know the word of God, so believe what I say, including what’s in this here book’…well, I leave ‘em outside the gates of Heaven; I don’t want ‘em around the wife and kids. All you others that think critically and rationally, and have figured out that there’s a sense of order to the universe that wasn’t created by some nasty old man with a bad temper, come on in - I’ve got the BBQ goin’ in the back yard and some cold beers in the cooler!!
Word of advice to you other ‘true believers’ that are still alive: snap out of it, repent from being brainwashed, and I might just save a beer for ya…
If you do not understand the Bible don’t blame God for it but your stupidity. That includes priests as well.
“If you are going to follow a religion how do you tell which one is correct?”
If you know the Truth then it is easy to distinguish which one is right.
“People like to claim that without religion we would have no morals”
Moral values are based on laws of nature not on religion. Religion just explains laws of nature.
“It’s a wonder it wasn’t Mary Magdalene who betrayed Jesus instead of Judas.”
As a matter of fact she really did. She got to close to Judas who corrupted her and then she transmitted her corruption to Jesus.
“And if you don’t love little baby Jesus with all your heart, God gives you the big Fuck Off.”
It is exactly like that. If Jesus dies then we all die. Term Jesus here should not be mistaken for real person (God’s messenger) who was crucified 2,000 years ago but THE JESUS - Sun that purifies our world.
Learn the Truth first before you show us your stupidity:
http://www.freeserbia.net/Editorial/Truth.html
LN (from 3:30 this morning),
As for “the belief that no matter how bad you are all you have to do is accept Jesus and all is forgivenâ€, I got that from the Southern Baptists– one of the largest denominations in the United States.
Jason:
“The Bible is inerrant because its claim of inerrancy is provable!” Are you joking?
I for one know that there is a God. He has delivered me from the depths of death on more then one accasion. If it were not for him I would surely have died when I was a young child. I do, however believe that God is not going to ask us when we stand before him to be judged what religion we were, but did we profess his name and how did we live the best that we could while we were alive. He is the judge and all will be judged when we die I know that my sins have been forgiven because Christ died on the cross for them and he would have done that for just one man but thanks to him I do not have to worry where I will be spending eternaty.
Hi, kids! I, too am an ex-Christian. I am now a solitary Wiccan (meaning I don’t belong to a coven.) I believe in an all-powerful creator pair (male and female, dontcha know) which we have many names for. I also believe in reincarnation and an afterlife. These things have come to make a lot of sense to me. That’s a faith thing.
I also believe that there are many paths to the truth and that agnosticism and atheism are also valid paths. We all have things to learn in our lives and it makes sense to be open to what others have to teach us. BTW, I still talk to Yaweh and Jesus and feel quite close to them both. If I am wrong in my beliefs and am judged to be a goat in the eyes of god on judgment day, I will bow my head and take my eternal punishment like a good witch.
Yes sir!!!! You nailed it head on. In the immortal words of Ian Anderson….. “Why do the faithful have such a will to believe something and call it the name they choose having chosen nothing” This is the best thing I have read on the net in a long time!!!!!
I find a lot of interesting arguments in these post but there is one thing I am surprised to not see listed in his reasons for not being a Christian.
Spare the rod and spoil the child. Sound familiar anyone? Don’t deny it. Christianity supports and promotes child abuse. This phrase has been misinturpreted for hundreds of years and been used to exuse horrid beatings on children. A firm spanking is one thing. It is another to wail on your child until they are screaming in agony and excuse it as justifiable by Gods word. Do not even try to deny you haven’t been to a church and heard some parent say this as if they have seen the light. This is a problem that has infuriated me for years and I well know it is a problem that plagues thousands of christian homes.
Yes, the bible does degrade women, promote slavery, and the torture of millions of women labeled *witches*, but has anyone forgotten the way it encourages shunning others? “You may live in this world but you are not of this world” is one quote I have heard many a smug churchgoer quip as if that makes them above their peers. You may live in this world but no one gave you the right to judge others. God will judge each according to his sins…so it says. Now, what I’m getting at is that perticular verse that goes something like: Cast ye out those who are astray so that they might see the error of their ways. Ok, so now the bible also condones bullying, bigotry, and rasism in a way.
The bible also contradicts itself to the point it can not be taken for fact. Let me use the birth of Jesus as a example. In Matthew he was born in a stable and was viewed by shepards. But where were the famous wise men? Well in Luke Jesus was born and was first seen in a house where he was visited by wise men. He was a child then. Hmm…were there two Jesus’s?
I truely find it hard to believe in a system that states we are all sinners from our Origional Sin which is basicly being born. So even existing is a sin. We are doomed from our first breath. Christianity uses fear, ignorance, and guilt to pressure poor souls into trying to attone for sins by making themselves suffer.
Last but not least, I do believe Christianity borrowed many things from much older religions. Christmas, a pagan sun god holiday, sacred to the Romans, was suddenly pronounced Christian and imposed upon all as their inventing. Not to mention Easter was and is also a borrowed holiday from the older pagean religions. And the child with mother figure? Borrowed. Do some research and find out the truth for yourselves. Not all religions make sense but christianity makes very, very, very little sense.
Read Sam Harris, “The End of Faith.” It’s the best argument I’ve come across yet for dumping religion. Not spirituality or ethics, but RELIGION - and all the craziness that comes along with it.
Hi. I’ve not read every comment to your post, so my sentiment may have already been voiced. Still, I feel moved to respond to your thoughts. Pardon me if I am being redundant.
You voice some common complaints against Christianity. However, Christianity as you’ve described it is a very small-minded, theologically deficient version of the religion. Sadly, it is also the version of Christianity that appears to be most prevalent in the U.S. today.
Very few of the theologians, ministers, or congregants that I’ve known in the last few years have held to such a close-minded, heartless caricature of Christianity.
So what do they and I believe? What makes us hold on to our faith, in the face of what we now know of the world?
We look at the intent of Christ first, since Christ is the cornerstone of Christianity. What do we have in the scriptures? What is said, and what was done? Can we best assess what is most important in life from this? Can tradition offer us insight? Can we discern what is best for ourselves? Does this fall in line with Christ’s edict to love our neighbors? By loving God most of all, we will be compelled to love our neighbors. Failure to love our neighbors indicates that we are not, in fact, lovers of God.
From there, we look at the writings that make up the Hebrew Scriptures. I note your dim assessment of these (for example, there’s the rant on how women are viewed in the Bible), and I wonder if you’ve talked with any members of the Jewish faith about their religion. The so-called “Old Testament” is a shared heritage between Christianity and Judaism. Christ himself was a Jew. Again, I and those whom I know in our attempt to know our religion work to better understand the message of Christ through the lens of Judaism.
Among us, scripture is not seen as an infallible source of knowledge, but is seen as a source of wisdom, inspiration, myth and heritage. Like any scripture of any religion, it’s easy to distort and easy to misinterpret, if you’re trying to derive some sort of absolute set of rules for life. However, human society collapses under absolutist structures.
Right now, my church — The UCC — has a campaign called “God Is Still Speaking.” (Disclaimer: I don’t speak for the UCC. My opinions are my own.)
The idea is that the word of God and the will of God aren’t static things. Rather, God continues to love and work with Creation, on all levels, from the subatomic to the universal. This does -not- mean that God is an old man with a white beard and long, flowing robes. Nor does this mean that God directly intervenes on our behalf. As a species, we really can’t visualize numbers larger than 100 or so. We’re ill-equipped at our current state of evolution to comprehend the infinite. However, thankfully, that’s not required. What is required — the only requirement — is that we love each other.
The idea of salvation as something that can be gained or lost, that God’s love is a capricious gift, came into being because of some misinterpretations of gospels and epistles long after the fact. People forget that the Gospel of John was written as a reaction against the then-prevalent Gnostic movement, which sought to say that only the “elect” had real souls, that only -they- would escape to heaven. John has to be read in that context. People forget that the epistles were written as personal correspondence, to correct problems in a specific congregation at a specific time.
Years afterward, people were still finding wisdom in these writings; hence, they were kept and bound and preserved. Unfortunately, the sense that these writings were somehow “perfect” crept into the picture, poisoning the religion for several.
For me, I’ve asked the question, “Were they to find the bones of Jesus today, would I cease to be a Christian?” Honestly, I would continue in my faith. Why? Because my faith is not built on a man. It is built on the truth that it is better to love each other than it is to hate each other. That is the core message of Christianity, and that is what keeps my faith alive.
(Note that I am not claiming that Christianity has a monopoly on that message of love. I simply understand it best through that context, as that is a part of my heritage.)
Religion in general is supposed to be a discipline. The believer takes on a discipline in the hopes of becoming a better person… one who is more loving, more patient, more compassionate, and so on.
Many people do evil things in the name of religion. They distort the scriptures, they oppress others, and they generally make life less worth celebrating. This occurs in all religions, sadly.
I’m sorry that those professed Christians and teachers of Christanity that you have known have been such poor examples of the faith. I’m appalled that the believers that you have known have set as the foundation of their faith the “wonder working” in the scriptures. (Talk about building your mansion on a foundation of sand!) I fear that the current shallowness known as the “Evangelical” movement has done more harm than good.
I hope, however, that you will still consider studying religion in general, as all religions have wisdom to offer the earnest seeker of truth.
May your journey enlighten and enliven you.
Mishe - I am a little miffed that you would include the teaching of Purgatory as a teaching of the Catholic Church. Doesn’t this fall into the category of teachings of man. Where in the BIBLE do you find any talk of such teaching. The BIBLE teaches that when Christ returns he will take the just to heaven, and the unjust stay in the grave. After the thousand years (when the New Jerusalem returns to the earth), the resurrection of the wicked and SATAN attempt to retake the Holy City. The wicked are then destroyed, and the earth is cleansed.
I know to you unbelievers this all sounds confusing and like a bunch of mumbo jumbo, but real Bible study is truly the understanding of the Bible. Do not try to read the Bible as a novel, from cover to cover, but read it as a study book. It truly explains itself.
I am always fascinated to hear people talk about there is no GOD and that we are products of evolution. For if you do not believe in God how else can you explain our existence. To think that you believe you have progressed from a single cell amoeba of some slime from a dirty pond is amazing. To say that when you trace your ancestry, you find you are just a product of pond slime must be fulfilling.
I believe that there is a God in Heaven and that he did create mankind on the sixth literal day of a seven day week. I believe that my ancestry can be traced to the man that God created. That at a time when God was just speaking things into existence, that GOD took the time to form mankind with His own hands. That he bent low and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. If Adam is the son of God, for He created him, and God is the King of the universe, then my ancestry makes me a prince of the King. AND I SHOULD LIVE AS SUCH. And to you women: God also took the time to hand create you, such beauty and perfection, and presented you to man as a soul mate to be cared for and honored, as a gift of GOD. Bless you women of God.
To say there is no God is to say you believe there is a God that you are not in touch with.
To say there is no water in the cup, is to say you believe in water, you just don’t have any.
Here is something else to think about: Why do you go to church on Sunday anyway? The bible teaches us to remember the Sabbath Day. The Catholic Church will tell you they changed the day on their own authority. This is a teaching or act of man not of the Bible. Look at most calendars of the world and you will see that Saturday is the Sabbath.
Like I said before, read and study the Bible, live as Children of a living God, and look forward to his soon second coming.
WOW - bring up religion, and get a lot of comments.
Point for point on the first post…
1. Inerrancy is a complicated concept even for the learned believer, and the term itself is not in the Bible, but rather it is an umbrella term later developed to include a number of beliefs about Scripture. I am sorry you have heard it used to exclude your understanding or appreciation for the testimonies of faith found in the Bible. I encourage you to not let this simple term keep you from a level of appreciation that you once knew. As for which English translation is the right one…, well, I can’t say there is a “right” because they are only translations, by which you will never gain the full sense of the Hebrew poetry, or the particulars of the Greek, but each English translation, and a combination of reading multiple translations offers to us an understanding in our own language to the stories and testimonies of faith which it records. Read them all together, enjoy them for what they are, and what they can mean to you.
2. While you can quote passages that seem to devalue women, watch your quick comparison to the Taliban, it devalues your own statement. I’ve been there, seen it, and seen treatment of many women in many cultures, and I challenge you first with this… the Bible is not wholly a lesson book, ABC - now repeat, rather a collection of stories from many people over many generations that are a record of people with problems encountering a God through faith. We learn lessons from these stories. Secondly, there are many accounts that speak highly of women (e.g. Jesus first appeared to women and told them to bear witness, something regarded illegal in that culture for women to do, but Jesus told them to do so) and the Bible gives female attributes to God (e.g. sheltering us under wings - like a mother bird) Lastly, please look further into these stories, Eve is held in high regard, and the whole “help mate” thing is completely misunderstood by many in the English as the original Hebrew word for Eve as Adams helper is also used to describe God as a help to Adam. So if the term for Eve lessons her below Adam, so does it for God, which is not the case. I’m afraid our own culture is what has made the Bible read as demeaning to women.
3. Your question of the jungle person is a classic question, and has been pondered for many many years. I have struggled much with this one myself, and here is where I found an answer. Romans 1:20 clarifies this question simply stating that God’s reality is evident to all, and many of the other teachings throughout the Bible then underline you are responsible for the knowledge you have received. Remember, God is judge, it is not a litmus test, but a judgment.
4. Sorry, the whole “following a zombie” thing I just don’t follow… I don’t even know where to start with that one. It seems to underline a number of possible mis-teachings. Please look again at the progression of life and reality for Jesus, not a zombie.
5. Also, not clear on your point about zombies, ghosts, angels, demons, giants, and witches.
6. My favorite, comparative religions, contrary to your commentary, most of the world’s religions agree on many of their basic beliefs, and when you get civilized believers of each around a table, they generally agree on much, once again been there done that with all you mention. The main difference in Christianity is grace and the understanding of God in three persons, the trinity, one God, three persons, and free forgiveness. I could go on, but that is the basic difference. I would be glad to go on about that one as a believer.
7. Atrocities are large crimes of passion, religion speech is often used in moments of passion, but used as a war cry, not as the humility teaching tool that it is. I believe if you took an objective record of the many hospitals, missions, schools, relief efforts, and such over the course of time you would find believers have far out given in this world than the name of God taken in vain for man’s sake. Test what is said by the fruit. People say a lot of stupid stuff, watch their actions, and be smart, discern those that are true from those that merely mask with what they call truth in God’s name.
8. The “others” issue is the hardest, and I apologize worst downfall of religion I agree. Please remember that those that believe are not made perfect, and many times carry the same personality faults with them right into their religious life. Read carefully the teachings of Jesus, they are not about a higher class, but rather about a lower class that humbles themselves and serves others, even loving their enemy. I have my faults, and my faith points them out to me continuously. My belief in Jesus is in one that is higher than I, and only by him do I find redemption for my sinful heart.
It sounds like you have been hurt by religious people, and for that I am deeply sorry. I pray that does not stop you from searching the record of Jesus, and the fruit of his teaching.
The fact is, all must content with the claim of Jesus to be God.
“if you have known me, you have also known my father”
“I and the father are one”
That Jesus claimed to be God is undeniable, and is an enormous part of why the pharisees contended so frequently with him.
“who is this that can forgive sins?”
We all are faced with the question… was Jesus God? Was he telling a truth or telling a lie?
Jesus tells us something VERY exclusive in John 14:6
“I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life. There is no other way to God except through me.”
We are all now faced with this claim from a man who claimed to be God.
So, to put a ‘Y’ in every person’s road who read this - will you believe Him or not?
Was Jesus God?
Do his actions back up his claim of diety? - (raising the dead, restoring the sight of the blind, walking on water, casting out demons, healing the lame and the crippled, raising from the dead himself) YES
Does his speech back up his claim of diety? - (sweetness and kindess of speech, caring for widows and orphans, knowledgeable of the old testament, able to understand the traps of the best pharisees and scholars and turn their questions around on them?) YES
Does his life back up his claim of diety? - (purity, sinlessness, resurrection from the dead, born of a virgin) YES
Does his fulfillment of prophecy back up his claim of diety? (fulfilling over 60 major prophesies of the old testament, matching the identity of the Messiah to come as described in Isaiah, Hosea, Zechariah, Psalms, etc, etc.) YES
If Jesus is God, and if He was raised from the dead, than his words in John 14:6 must be true. “I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life. There is no other way to God except through me.” There is no other way. Only through belief in Christ - and not merely knowledge of him (”Even the demons believe in God” - James 2). If we simply believe that He is God, we are no better than the demons. Rather, our belief must transform our life. There is change and difference. Fruits of righteousness, holiness, joy, purity, and soft-heartedness. A love for God ensues that permeates into our lives.
This is not attained through Allah, Mormon, Buddha, Baal, or any other false image or idol.
If Jesus is God, as He claimed - He is the only way.
Many false teachers will come and try to convince us otherwise - as noted well in scripture - scripture which happens to be attacked in this column.
The fact is, Jesus - who claimed to be God, and to be the only way out of the trap of sin that every person has which leads to hell - offers freedom and forgiveness through conversion and belief in Him.
To address the claims against the word of God in this column, we can look to the words of Jesus Christ, who affirms the truth of the Old Testament as written by Moses, David, and others - and regards it as true. He quotes scripture as truth throughout the New Testament.
So my plea for anyone reading this is that you would see the lie and trap of the enemy - the devil - who wishes to ensnare you into thinking things that are not true. Look around you. Look at the creation. Look at the claims of Christ. He is God. He can be your Lord and your God, and he can bring joy beyond belief, eternal salvation, and satisfaction in life & death.
For those who doubt the validity of the Bible, reading books on apologetics by Josh McDowell and books by Lee Strobel (A Case for Christ, A Case for Faith) will be helpful.
I am a Christian, and God and His Son Jesus mean everything to me. I also believe that “all scripture (the text of the Bible) is “God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).
Nobody is perfect. Especially Christians. True Christians know this and preach this. The only human ever to be perfect was Christ himself. All we can do is try to live by his commands and teachings and his example. But we are all sinners. We all do wrong by others and to ourselves. Even if it is unintentional. Like the apostle Paul said “I am the worst of sinners”. so are the rest of us. Any Christian that says he doesn’t sin is flat out lying. We all do from time to time. But so long as we believe in Christ and have been saved and baptized in his name for remission of our sins, we can ask for forgiveness and recieve it. As for the Bible being contradictory, inaccurate, mistranslated, etc, I don’t think so. Perhaps on the translations you’re right. I’ve read one or two modern bibles that were pretty out there. But as far as the Bible being contradictory, read it more. I’ve recently been taking a course on studying and reading the Bible from beginning to end, and I have to say, I’ve learned a lot from it. Things I use to not understand and thought went against other parts of the Bible, I’ve come to realize really aren’t. They go hand in hand, but it’s just in understanding how all of it works together. I also just want to say that I’m sorry to anyone whose been mistreated or abused by those claiming to be doing work in the name of Christ. As I said earlier, some of this I’m sure is unintentional, but I’m sure some of it isn’t. Some people let hate, prejudice, and others things get in the way of the true teachings of Christianity.
To answer Jerry’s question, “does cold exist?”
No, cold is a relative term for the lack of heat.
All things produce or give off heat. They do not produce or give off cold.
I am not a christian anymore. I used to be a preacher in a well known christian movement, but I have come to realize that Christianity is built on a myth. I am working on a book by that title “The Myth of Christianity” where I look at what christianity is and what it is not. Christianity has a purpose which is to develop a moral code for a community of people. The myth part of it which I talk about in my book is that christianity is the doorkeeper for Jesus. Nor is christianity a bridge which helps bring people to Jesus. Jesus stands alone in His mission to reach out to people and does not need us to accomplish His work of redemption. Jesus is the WAY and not christianity.
For those who doubt the validity of the Bible, reading books on apologetics by Josh McDowell and books by Lee Strobel (A Case for Christ, A Case for Faith) will be helpful.
I am a Christian, and God and His Son Jesus mean everything to me. I also believe that “all scripture (the text of the Bible) is “God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).
One needs to read the Bible in its entirety to be able to see the “common threads”, or messages, that God is giving us. To be sure, some of its text (i.e, the Books of the Law, such as Deuteronomy, Leviticus) were given to the Israelite people to follow before Christ came. The Bible is the backbone of Christianity, and it needs to be accepted as divine truth in order to understand how we as individuals can receive the promise of heaven, how we are to live while on earth, how God’s unconditional love, his mercy, and his hope can get us through until we meet Him face to face.
For those who have been turned off or disillusioned by Christianity for whatever reason, I am truly sorry. Christians are not perfect, just forgiven. Please remember that the Bible promises that our one great God, once we have accepted Him and His Son, will never forsake you, no matter how tough life gets. He promises that over and over in his word. Man will always disappoint, but God has promised his faithfulness!!!!
Please, continue to investigate and question, but READ, READ, READ the Bible!! Pray that God will reveal its truth to you!! I will be praying for you, too!
Hi….you know it’s very interesting. I constantly hear people proclaim these supposed contradictions and inconsistencies in the Bible…when you break it down however, these people are often those who haven’t actually read it for themselve and took time to actually study it…instead they listen to skeptical arguments and citations that seem to support them…I’ve met several people who after ACTUALLY READING the Bible who found that there are actually no contradictions once the context is examined
Only non-thinking Christians say the Bible has no errors or inaccuracies. God inspired men to write it and men are imperfect. Even translations differ due to the translator or changes in the language meanings. We even have trouble with our own Constitution because meanings of words have changed. It is the teachings of moral truths in the Bible that come from God. The dietary laws drew upon the writer’s knowledge that certain foods were dangerous to eat. Their wisdom was greater than their science. The Bible is a mixture of stories that teach moral truths, mixed with history and all inspired by God, not dictated. The oral tradition stories were written down and interwoven, then all the copyists and translators added to the mix, yet it remains inspired by God.
When I look at a Hubble telescope photo of an area of the sky 1/10 the size of the moon and there are 10,000 visible galaxies [probably more that can't be seen] each with millions of stars, then think of looking in all directions from earth, the number of galaxies that are out there is stupendous. Our God is truly an awesome God to create all that.
Yet I and others have had prayers answered. I saw the spirit of my deceased father-in-law saying goodbye at his funeral. I may be a heretic Christian to most, but I am still a Christian.
Religion doesn’t save. Jesus saves. Only a personal relationship with God by obedience in his plan of salvation brings salvation.
There is an experience in God that can be felt. Acts 2:38. Find a church that baptizes in Jesus’ name and believes in receiving the gift of God’s Spirit by speaking in tongues as as his spirit gives the utterance. This is from God, it can’t be taught. It’s real. Try and see.
I have read most of the postings here. I am amazed at all the comments that have come to this one person. I am a Christain, but I also know that everyone is entitled to thier view. I can say yes that the “the people in the church” almost ruined me in my belief, but I know that God (big G not little g) is all knowing, and knows my heart and how I feel. God stated that the 2 most important command was to love God with all your heart and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. How can one hate themselves? We have more people now that love themselves due to a “me now” mentality than ever, yet, they don’t take time to love thier neighbor. As I stated at the top of this, you are entitled to your opinion, as everyone who posts here. You have made up your mind in your view, as everyone else has. I know God is real and alive, I also know in a quite time, in a need you may have in your life, if you decide to come back to Him, he will be there for you. I wish you the best.
The response to this site is incridible to me. The very fact that this is such a concern to so many people in itself reflects the intense emotion that the subject of God(big “G”) has on people. Ponder that. Secondly, I was one of the dis-heartened Christians that saw falable man as depicting God. The error was mine. We try our best but let’s face it; we’re not as good as God. We make mistakes. Next, I was even a student of Rhama Chrishna in college because I also thought that there was truth in the combination of thought in theology and there was no religion that “got it all right”. I was wrong then also. AFTER, all of the research steming from a background in mathematics and physics and statistics, I have come to some personal conclusions that each of you will have to make for yourselves. I even thought that there were intrinsic contradictions in the Bible due to human error. Again let me say that I was wrong. Let me explain as briefly as possible. The original began in Hebrew and Aramaic. These are the “versions” which must be studied with the HELP of modern english translations (including the King James Version for all of the extreme fundamentalists out there). The more that I truely study the more dumbfounded I am at the super extreme precision that the Bible has with modern, cutting edge science and mathematics. There is even prophecy in the geneologies and the tribes of Israel. Every word and space has specific pupose. When the scribes would copy the original texts, if they were to make any mistake, they were not allowed to correct it, they had to start over. It was so sacred to them that whenever they would write to name of God, they had to purify themselves, write God’s name, purify themselves and then continue writing. THIS IS ATTENTION TO DETAIL!! My apologies I am beginning to rant. For a simple introduction to this, check out the books, Case for Christ, Case for the Creator, etc. Finally, I agree with many of the responders out there when they noted that beyond the “head” knowledge, there is a “heart” knowledge that confirms all that I have said. Many people know about God, whatever percentage that may be, but our object should be to “Know God”. This is not done by research but rather relationship. Let me end with this; if anyone would like to continue to gripe and complain about all of the hurts that people have done to us, then no one can stop you. If, on the other hand, you would like to know the truth; then do the research and ask God for help.
Ps. I always had the “little Running Bear” debate. How did a culture who had no knowledge of Jesus get to Heaven. This is addressed in Prov. 24:12 and IJn 3:7 “If you say, “See, we did not know this,” does He not consider it who weighs the hearts? And does He not know it who keeps your soul? And will He not render to man according to his work?”
DO ALL OF THE RESEARCH.
How can we accept that something or someone greater than us exists? How can we go about to prove or disprove this?
Will science and reason/logic and any other resources of this nature lead us to all that we need and want to know?
We are born into different environments. We encounter people, situations, and other factors that contribute to who we become. But what we choose to accept and believe begins within ourselves because we have to make a decision. We have to decide to accept/reject and believe/disblieve.
When I was younger I went to a Christian school and read the Bible and went to Church services. I was surrounded by Christianity but did not really understand or grasp it. I prayed and I memorized Bible verses, sang songs, etc. but it really was just a shallow encounter that was not sufficient. I had to experience more in my life in order to make that inner decision to believe.
For those of you who are not Christians but have been exposed to Christianity or used to be Christians - keep looking, analyzing, researching, challenging what Christians believe in. I sincerely believe that it is not a waste of time especially if you have read this far. And please do not forget that reason and science does not explain all.
We all need to be careful. Because I believe in God, I also believe that evil exists. Satan is working hard to turn us away from God, to confuse us, to turn us against each other. He is like a lion searching for people to devour. He deceives! Not all who claim to be Christian really are.
I wish all of you well. May you all be in peace and blessed by the Lord Jesus Christ.
Duane, I wish you would post more of your wisdom. I do share the same perspective as I had been a Catholic, strayed awhile, listened to other christian sects and got back being a Catholic. Indeed, how I wish Christianity has a single faith or a one true Church. But your explanation says it all. God wants us to make a choice and that choice can never be made without free will. Otherwise, all he has to do is to come down from heaven with all his angels for all the world to see. That should scare the wits of even the most hardcore atheist in this world. But he gave us a mind to reason and to seek the truth by ourselves. What is all this exercise of being born, growing into adulthood, then dying if there is no purpose? If our existence in this world has no purpose, then it will be like walking the distance without any destination. I do not know how a “fullness of life” can be had without a purpose. What are we studying for? What are we working for? Why are we raising a family for? So forth and so on. Everything is in constant movement, even the walls in our homes keeps moving. For people who feel they do not have a purpose, then they must be lost. The reason for living becomes meaningless. I believe God has given us the choice to lead ourselves back to him or be somewhere else.
Yes, I am still a Catholic. A Catholic because it is the only Christian religion that has historical roots and its teachings of salvation is more plausible than anything I have come across. The reason why some peoples’ arguments sound ridiculous is because they extract verses in the bible and they arrogate unto themselves the authority to interpret an ancient text written by ancient people in ancient times. We cannot expect our generation educated in today’s science and technology to accept the whole hook, line and sinker of what is in the bible in its literal sense without appreciating the circumstances when it was made, it will surely sound ridiculous. A compilation of books that have been evaluated and debated by the Holy Fathers who have devoted their whole lives studying the bible is surely a Holy Book that cannot be interpreted by one man or every man. This is the very reason why there are so many Christian denominations, they took it upon themselves to fashion the meaning of the scriptures to come out with a different faith, different religion. Hope you do not get me wrong, my being a Catholic is not a condemnation of other religions but a choice as each one of us has one, either be an atheist, an agnostic, gnostic, protestant or what have you. The basis of the teachings of the Catholic Church is in the scriptures and her traditions. I humbly submit that I cannot explain with such fluency and authority my own faith as I am a poor example of a good Catholic. I envy Sara, James and Gnostic in their intelligence and witty prose but they make me read articles like these with ease. I thank you guys for making me read more. I hope the other apologists of the christian faiths would welcome this exchange thru objective discussions and not merely as GnosticGospel would say “gibberish/tautology ALERT!!”
I must say, having been baptised Catholic as an infant and reaching the point of Confirmation, that there are a lot of Catholic traditions I disagree with and do not originate in the Bible.
First and foremost, the creation of the pope (or “papa”). Where in the Bible does it say that the church is to be ruled by one overseer? In fact, it does state that the church is to be ruled by elders within the individual churches. And the claim of the pope to be the Vicar of Christ (or voice of Christ) and that he speaks Excathedra (with the authority of Christ, Himself). They also claim to be spiritual descendents of Peter’s line. The idea of what Jesus had said to Peter was taken advantage of. Since its inception, the idea of the pope was reinforced by traditions created by the popes themselves to justify their positions. They also outlawed the reading of the Bible by laymen so that these misinformed people would not learn to question their authority. Paul, whom the popes hold very highly, taught to search the scriptures to test all truths. This message was not just given to church leaders.
The idea of infant baptism. First of all, baptism was not a mandate for salvation. The man on the cross next to Jesus, whom Jesus personally promised would be with him in paradise, was not baptised. But once baptism was taught as the new form of circumcision covenent, the idea arose that infants should be baptised to secure their salvation. Where in the Bible has that ever been taught or done? And the way it is done by Catholics, by sprinkling…the word itself means immersed.
The creation of the mandatory sacraments…where does that originate from?
Or the most outrageous…the idea of indulgences…doing or buying penance to saved loved ones from time in purgatory…all this is created well after Jesus and the Bible and was never mandated by Christ or taught by the apostles. Jesus and the apostles preached that it is by faith and the grace of God alone that we are saved. Jesus sacrificed his life for all humanity. We could not, no matter how holy or saintly we think we might be, save ourselves. We are all sinners, and to imply that we can do acts to better our salvation takes away from what Jesus had to do.
Having said all that, I do not agree with people who state that one faith in particular has gotten it perfect.
There have been many great popes and other Catholics (such as Boniface and Rafael Llull) who have demonstrated their intense fervor for God and are responsible for the discipleship of thousands. The word Catholic actually means universal. It was designed to be a Christ kingdom (Christendom), which can never exist until after Christ’s return anyway, but it was not made with ill intent. Only when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome, and church and state became one power, was when corruption began to happen and the church found its sword.
Many years later Martin Luther (a Catholic, by the way) decided to try to reform the Catholic church and get back to Biblical doctrine. This, of course, was not met well with Catholic bishops who held incredible seats of power. Thus began the beginning of all the divisions as certain men, one by one, decided to create a religion based on what THEY felt was correct.
Main point is this…to follow a religion simply because it is deep rooted in traditions is dangerous. Faith in Jesus is all that is needed. True faith will produce works on its own, but works cannot produce salvation. I hold the Bible to be true. If it indeed is truth, then nothing will disprove it. Everyone should search the scriptures themselves and come to their faith without believing in any man-made, authoritative figure or religion. Then seek the fellowship of other believers to encourage, strengthen, and most importantly love one another.
Bless all in Lord Jesus!!!
Wow! I’m amazed at how many sheeple tried, vainly, to shoot down the advocates of reason.
Is it courage or stupidity that makes them do that? Or, is it the fear of facing the objective reality their whims and wishes hide from them?
The only proof of any god exists where science has yet to go, ultimately, this foolish mysticism will have nowhere to run.
Its funny to me…
Those who possess a belief in science…whenever something peculiar or wonderful happens that cannot be explained by the wisest in science, its always attributed to the mysterious “mother nature” character or “nature’s way”. That’s an ok cop-out, I guess.
But anyway, you evolutionists can all come from monkeys if you want (and I would bet many of you do!), but I would rather be created by a wonderful and glorious God.
By the way, you guys find that missing link yet?
I think Shaquille O’Neal is the closet you’ve come to Bigfoot.
Richter, I do not profess to be wise, bur merely hope that I’ve served some purpose by posting above. Thank you for your insight as well. I am protestant, but would never claim that any one church/denomination is greater than another. There is no church that is perfect because they are led and comprised of flawed humans.
The problems that have been associated with the Christian Faith largely stem from the people who profess to be of such a faith. They are no different than the people who are not Christian, they are imperfect sinners. We are not perfected until such a time when God calls us home. Until then, we are no less capable of sin than any other person. That means that Pride, hypocrisy, fear and hate, though sins in the eyes of God, still creep their way into the Church.
That’s what leads to Churches denouncing other Churches, and judging the non-believers. That’s what causes the “Us or Them” mentality. It’s not part of the Faith, its not hardwired into Christianity, it’s not a prerequisite to forming a Church. It is a SIN no different than any other.
I am not naive to think that the Church, being divinely inspired and led, is STILL not without faults, or sin. I am not foolish enough to believe that I, or any other Christian can and will emulate Christ to perfection. Nor should you be.
The word is what it is, and that is inerrant. But as I mentioned above, they are divinely inspired, and not written by God. That means that they were written by men who lived in a society that was just as full of darkness and corruption as it is now. Is every syllable of the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek manuscripts inerrant words of God? Or our the stories, teachings and examples found therein what is the inerrant message from God? There is no answer, just belief, and because of that their comes a multitude of interpretations, and as a result there comes a plethora of Denominations and Bible translations.
Each man and woman has been given a choice, and we as Christians can only teach. WE CAN NOT FORCE, PRESSURE OR COERCE a person to make the choice we want them to. God gave them the right to free will, and nowhere does give Christians the authority to take it away. If a man chooses to walk away, then we must respect that choice as much as it saddens us. Christ taught love and tolerance. We should be do no less than that.
James, Sara, Gnostic, you are all beautiful people blessed with intelligence and strength of character. I know that nothing I say can change your minds, but I just wanted to let you know that Christianity did not fail you… people did, as all people are prone to do. Sure they were Christian People, but they are still people. They are people with a purpose and a goal, but will still fall down, and get lost from time to time. I am sorry, truly sorry, that are example as a faith was one so skewed and twisted that in the end God could not be found within. I only hope that, despite your not wanting anything to do with Christianity does not stop myself from convincing you that there is still love, and hope in Christianity. That we are not all hypocrites, and liars, and hate mongers. That there is something redeemable about the Faith.
Live is a journey, with many a crossroads. I choose one path and you can choose another. Doesn’t mean we won’t meet again somewhere down the road. Even if we don’t, I can still send you a postcard from time to time.
Oh, and forgive me for my incessant rambling…
Hey, I can’t stay. I’m getting ready to take my kids to storytime at the library, but I just had to take a second to say…sheeple, lol. That’s a perfect description of what I was as a christian, even better than zombie.
And, Mathew, I’m sorry, but you are either crazy or stupid. I generally try to be polite, but wow, there’s just no other way to say it. No one here is claiming the existence of bigfoot. And please read my previous post about fable and folklore not being a substition for science simply because we don’t have all the answers yet.
Steve — love the “sheeple”!!
Exactly, Sarah. Just because you don’t know how something works doesn’t mean you need the adult Santy Claus (AKA god). Matthew (and anyone who comes out against evolution) should just move to Kansas and build a huge fence and purge the state of everything that they can’t explain. “Can you explain how a CRT works? No? Bye-bye television!” Not being able to watch NASCAR would get their attention.
BTW — God didn’t strike me down for my blaphemy on my ride home. WTF god? Come git some! God = ineffectual/obsolete.
Matthew 7:6-8
Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
Ask, and it will be given to you;seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Plasms 14:1 And the fool said in his own heart.”There is no God”.
Be not decieved God is not mocked.Whatsoever a man sow he will reep also.
This saddens me. (If you want my thoughts, look at what I posted above). Almost all that I have read, leads me to believe that people, yes even the people of science, are so closed minded. Science/math is far too complex to have happened by chance. The Sheeple was unfortunately accurate and yes that is how errors happen. Blindly following any man is a “sure” way to error. Fortunatly for me, I do believe in God and the fact that HE KNOWS MORE THAN ME!! THANK GOD! I have much to learn and try to be a little more open to learn all of the sides of an argument w/o attackiing others to make myself feel better about my decisions and discoveries.
My encouragement? DO THE MATH!
Sara
Tell me you say you had a true conversion correct? Were you ever baptisted in the Holy Spirit? And I’m not taking water Baptism.
To Ricky
Well said.Praise the Lord!
Everyone, my above posts just a few minutes ago was directed to all, not just Richter, even though it appeared as such. Sorry for the confusion. Here’s a repost for your convienence:
I do not profess to be wise, bur merely hope that I’ve served some purpose by posting above. Thank you for your insight as well. I am protestant, but would never claim that any one church/denomination is greater than another. There is no church that is perfect because they are led and comprised of flawed humans.
The problems that have been associated with the Christian Faith largely stem from the people who profess to be of such a faith. They are no different than the people who are not Christian, they are imperfect sinners. We are not perfected until such a time when God calls us home. Until then, we are no less capable of sin than any other person. That means that Pride, hypocrisy, fear and hate, though sins in the eyes of God, still creep their way into the Church.
That’s what leads to Churches denouncing other Churches, and judging the non-believers. That’s what causes the “Us or Them†mentality. It’s not part of the Faith, its not hardwired into Christianity, it’s not a prerequisite to forming a Church. It is a SIN no different than any other.
I am not naive to think that the Church, being divinely inspired and led, is STILL not without faults, or sin. I am not foolish enough to believe that I, or any other Christian can and will emulate Christ to perfection. Nor should you be.
The word is what it is, and that is inerrant. But as I mentioned above, they are divinely inspired, and not written by God. That means that they were written by men who lived in a society that was just as full of darkness and corruption as it is now. Is every syllable of the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek manuscripts inerrant words of God? Or our the stories, teachings and examples found therein what is the inerrant message from God? There is no answer, just belief, and because of that their comes a multitude of interpretations, and as a result there comes a plethora of Denominations and Bible translations.
Each man and woman has been given a choice, and we as Christians can only teach. WE CAN NOT FORCE, PRESSURE OR COERCE a person to make the choice we want them to. God gave them the right to free will, and nowhere does give Christians the authority to take it away. If a man chooses to walk away, then we must respect that choice as much as it saddens us. Christ taught love and tolerance. We should be do no less than that.
James, Sara, Gnostic, you are all beautiful people blessed with intelligence and strength of character. I know that nothing I say can change your minds, but I just wanted to let you know that Christianity did not fail you… people did, as all people are prone to do. Sure they were Christian People, but they are still people. They are people with a purpose and a goal, but will still fall down, and get lost from time to time. I am sorry, truly sorry, that are example as a faith was one so skewed and twisted that in the end God could not be found within. I only hope that, despite your not wanting anything to do with Christianity does not stop myself from convincing you that there is still love, and hope in Christianity. That we are not all hypocrites, and liars, and hate mongers. That there is something redeemable about the Faith.
Live is a journey, with many a crossroads. I choose one path and you can choose another. Doesn’t mean we won’t meet again somewhere down the road. Even if we don’t, I can still send you a postcard from time to time.
Oh, and forgive me for my incessant rambling…
HST: 1:1 “We were somewhere around Barstow on the edge of the desert when the drugs began to take hold”.
Random quotes from random books do not make your argument.
Joe — “Do the math”? If you knew anything about math and science, you would realize that the irreducible complexity argument does not lead to god. It leads to “we don’t know”. Which is a perfectly fine answer. Why muck about, claiming that it must be god? Why? Because things are irreducible complex? Why? Because there is a god. How do you know? Because things are irreducible complex? Why? Because there is a god. How do you know? Because things are irreducible complex? Why…
“Round and round. With love, we’ll find a way — just give it time”
Ratt 9:13
BTW — please don’t take the “Fear and Loathing” quote to be at all related to Kierkegaard’s “Fear and Trembling” and his bullshit leap of faith. Yeah, Soren. I dissed you. Credo consolans!!
Allen James
I can only tell you one thing.And thats God can become as real as you want Him to be.But it takes faith.And you have to devote time to talk with Him.As some of these other people have said.People go to church for all diffrent reasos.And not only that,but 75% of your preachers don’t even believe what their preaching.But thats only because most people never recieve the Baptism of the Holy Spirit..Without the Baptism of the Holy Spirit you are carnally minded and walking in the flesh and not the spirit.To be carnally minded is dead.The Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth.And the reason I know this is because when I first got saved,I used to smoke pot.And I asked the preacher what waswrong with it.He couldn’t give me an answer.But when I got filled with the Holy Spirit.God spoke to my heart and said.See you don’t need the pot you can get high on my spirit.And I was so excited I was jumping up and down Praising God,And I was delivered from pot at that very moment.I wasn’t even tempted by it.And two years later I was delivered from smoking cigarettes.
Duane — thanks for the kind words. My inflammatory rhetoric was aimed at the less lucid and less inclusive of the flock. However, I disagree that people and not christianity failed us. I feel that christianity failed us. Those wolves in sheep’s clothing who hold a bible in one hand and a fistful of ill-gotten, filthy lucre in the other (DeLay) are just the evidence of its failure.
Christianity failed me in its rigidity, its take on science, its need for self-abasement, its need of fear (god-fearing), its requirement that I must believe without question in something unproveable and unknowable, etc, etc.
Christianity and all of these random bible quote just smack of madness. How is believing in something you can’t see any different than insanity?
How is it that the Branch Davidians are a “cult” and LDS isn’t? How are they fundamentally different?
Question: would missionary aliens landing on Earth to spread the word of their god, created in their own image, shake your faith? I’ve always thought that if that happened, everyone would wise up and drop religion and its associated conflict. But from the comments here, I am afraid that the faithful would not be moved.
GG
Duane
Well Spoken.God Bless!
“The Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth.And the reason I know this is because when I first got saved,I used to smoke pot…. I was delivered from pot at that very moment.I wasn’t even tempted by it.And two years later I was delivered from smoking cigarettes.”
ALERT ALERT! Tautology identified. Or is it a syllogism? Too many logic falacies too quickly. Brain overload!!
Let me turn the beat around:
Didn’t god make pot? Are you really a sinner for not smoking up? Doesn’t it make me more of a christian by smoking pot, because I glorify Him through His creations?
I didn’t smoke pot until I took some LSD and talked to satan, at which time he told me that I shouldn’t smoke pot, so I figured that god would want me to smoke pot, ergo satan is real. Nice! This is fun and easy.
GnosticGospels
Who says LDS aren’t a cult .I have you to know they are.The point there is this.If you can’t live by faith then thats your chose.That does not mean Christianity fail you.You made that chose.The bible says without faith it’s impossible to please God.Don’t blame Christianity for the choses you made.
GnosticGospels
And I can see your still talking to satan.
Good gravy! That’s almost unreadable. Is that Esperanto or English?
“Who says LDS aren’t a cult ” OK. Fine. LDS is a cult. It is a christian cult though, no? I say that the pentacostal snake handlers are also a christian cult. Agreed?
“The bible says without faith it’s impossible to please God.” And the Weekly World News says that aliens have landed and the Chucacabra is real. You point is? Quoting bible quotes to a non-believer is like carrying coals to Newcastle.
GnosticGospels
You see that was my point.Thats the very thing I told the preacher.God put pot on this earth didn’t he.You know what the linehas been used over a million times.I didn’t listen to that preacher ,but I did listen to the Holy Spirit.You need to do a study and found out where the true meaning of drugsare.And it all leads to witchcraft.
And I can see that “your” still having linguistic difficulties. Isn’t Ricky Bobby racing today?
PS: I am satan.
PPS: I meant santa!
GnosticGospels
My mistake.Your right! Therefore I shake the dust off my feet as a testimony against you.Your blood is on your own hands.Have a great day!
I just talked to god. I have a sort of “bat phone” to her (yes, he is a she, but not in a pre-op tranny way). Anyway. I asked her what heaven is like and she told me that you get to do all of the stuff that you’re not supposed to do here on Mars (coveting, smiting, stealing, etc.). Plus there’s free pizza and the Chronic. It’s actually called the “Christic” there. Just a little joke between the three of them, although they only hang with the holy ghost because it has the dank connections.
Tell me seriously. Don’t those graven images of Jesus (the type that god specifically prohibits and Moses went ape shit over) make him look like a huge stoner?
Why does this subject have to be so aggressive? A religion that is a good influence on ones life is a good deal, right. Buddhism, Christianity, Wicca, and MANY more can be good for a person. Why does it always have to be, “Convert now!” or “You’re wrong.” Why can’t we disagree with each other and it be okay? This Blog has proven what Dwayne was saying about “the others”, but it doesn’t just stop at Christians. Many of the represenatives of several religions fall under the “I’m better than you because of my religion.”
Dwayne has stated his opinion and I’m glad he has found something that has made him feel balanced. I respect conversation and opinion, but when it gets to the point where people are attacking others’ religions or them personally it becomes a negative influence on all. Happiness, exceptance, respect. I believe most religions say this somewhere in thier philosophy.
I post again in hopes that we may continue our friendly discussion. I certainly mean no ill by whatever I post, and do not remotely consider the possibility of changing your minds. I sincerely apologize if anything I have said or will say offends anyone. I post to share, and I say what I say in love. You can choose to read it and move on without paying it any real heed; you could read it and rebuttal; you could read it ponder on it; or you can dismiss out of hand without so much as a single thought. None of which would offend me. You have certainly demonstrated that you are well studied, and gifted with great analytical skills. I would seem that I could merely only hope to keep up with the discussion as it develops.
It is unfortunate that Christianity is associated with rigidity. The Jewish laws of the Old Testament were certainly rigid and unforgiving, but Christ came to fulfill that law in our place. Christ taught tolerance and forgiveness, love and peace. Christ came into opposition many a time from the Pharisees and Sadducees, who were the very personification of the rigidness of the Old Jewish Law, many a time because Christ supped with and kept company with sinners; prostitutes, thieves, adulterers, tax collectors and the like. Christ boils down the 10 commandments and hundreds of laws into just two commandments; Love the Lord with all you heart, mind, and strength and Love your neighbor as yourself. When Christ died, no longer were only a few men allowed to speak with God on behalf of all people, but rather all could approach God through Christ, and Gentiles were given the opportunity to share in the salvation not just the Jewish nation. Rigidity, it would seem, was crucified on that cross right along with the sins of mankind.
Now, much to my dismay, many Christians and Churches have come to be the very modern rebirth of the former Pharisees and Sadducees, mired in religious rhetoric and religious liturgy. They are about the appearance of the Faith and themselves. They have become legalistic and rigid in their Faith. They have taken the Sacrifice of Christ, the very act of selflessness and mercy bestowed upon the world, and turned it into a trophy that can only be rewarded to those who act accordingly.
If true Christianity, not the Christian Church or People, was indeed rigid than there would be none who would be saved and redeemed. Not one, not the ministers, evangelists, or missionaries, is worthy of salvation. It is, in fact, the very non-rigidness of the new covenant forged by the blood of Christ that allows for anyone to experience the grace of God, if only they believe and accept. Nowhere does it ask for blameless, perfect people. Nowhere does it say you must continue to be perfect after you choose to accept. It is solely, the Church and the Christians of this world who place judgments and restrictions on God’s mercy and salvation.
Your beliefs are your own, and I certainly do not belittle them. Though we disagree on much, I believe we agree on this: It is far better to discuss our differences with a somber heart, than to argue with a bitter spirit.
I wouldn’t know I don’t worship idols.Duh! lol lol lol Whata fool your are lol lol lol This is great.I love it.Be not decieved God is not mocked.Whatsoever a man sows he will reep. lol lol lol Good Day GnoniticGospels or what were your name is.lol lol lol Oh I love it.
Mandy
I like what you said.But I’m afraid I must point out the fact that Christianity is not a religion.I don’t know many times I have to tell people before they get it in their heads.Religion is dead.Christianity is a relationship with God though His Son Jesus Christ.I may be known to be a little harsh on some people and thats ok.Because at least,Im being truthful and tell the truth of the only way to God.That’s more than I can say for most christians.True love corrects.God says He corrects the ones He loves.
I have a diverse family when it comes to religion. I am the oldest of six and not one of my siblings believes the same. My parents, grandparents, cousins, all of them are different from one another in religion or practice. I love all of you and I thank you for the variety of teachings that you all give me. I’ll see you this weekend Sara and Dwayne. Hug the kids for me.
I don’t have time to answer your post line-by-line. But one thing stuck out:
“It is, in fact, the very non-rigidness of the new covenant forged by the blood of Christ that allows for anyone to experience the grace of God, if only they believe and accept.”
It’s the line “if only they believe and accept”. That’s rigidity, QED. What kind of low self-esteem god would make me believe in him to be saved? As posted elsewhere, what if I hadn’t heard of god? Could I get the heavenly hall pass? Couldn’t I just be a “good” person and god just be cool and let me into the christian country club?
Also, it doesn’t bother you that transubstantiation was just a made-up idea created by the Nicene Counsel in the 6th century and that your belief in the power of the blood of christ was created by men? Or am I confusing catholicism with the larger christianity? Lapsed catholics certainly have an axe to grind!
I agree that the OT promotes rigidity and the NT speaks of change, but I still think that the NT has been hijacked by those seeking power and that the bible was created by men (why do you think my handle is GnosticGospels?). In other words, christianity was created by men with an agenda. It is so weak that it has allowed itself to be hijacked and misused and it’s difficult to respect that. And it asks me to do things and believe in things that make no rational sense. Thus, in my opinion, christianity has failed me and society. Broad strokes on the canvas, I know.
Theres a story that goes like this.Your driving down the road.And I’m stand about 300 yards in front of you.Another 300 yards in front of me is a bridge out(torn down out of service with no warning signs).And I’m saying to myself.”I’d better not stop them and tell them the bridge is out,for they might get mad at me for stopping them”. Now how would you feel if I just let you drive off that bridge?Therefore in the same story I’m warning you of eternal punishment for those who reject the truth.Jesus said seek the truth and the truth will set you free.Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the Life.And this my friends is all that I have to say about this issue.My hopeand prayer is that you find Christ.God Bless and have a Great Day!
“Because at least,Im being truthful and tell the truth of the only way to God.That’s more than I can say for most christians.True love corrects.God says He corrects the ones He loves.”
Religious gibberish/logical fallacy ALERT!
But at least it’s not rigid: “the only way to God” ROTFLMFAO. This just gets better!
Duane, you have cast your Lot with these free-thinkers. I’d rather burn in Sodom and Gomorrah!
This whole argument of of God and the Bible and Jesus has been going for centuries. As to whether or not there is a God, I cannot see how anyone can deny that. God may not be God of the Hebrew bible (Old Testament) he may not be Jesus, although I tend to believe that Jesus was divine, but his message over the last two millenia has been somewhat distorted.
There are so many proofs that God exists it is incredible. If you leave your televisions, IPODs and Computers and go out into the country side and just observe this all could not have happened by chance. The utter mind boggling diversity (I hate that word) of nature is incredible. The complexitiy of the interaction of species and the interdependence is unfathomably complicated.
If you begin from the largest things, Galaxies, there is almost no limit to them. If you go from there and look at each smaller grouping it is beyond amazing. The largest things are almost infinite in number. The smallest things are almost infinite in number. We believe that we have discovered the smallest particle and then we find another even smaller, particle. All of these particles make up electrons, neutorns and protons, which make up molecules that make up cells that make up all life forms. Then you have the incredibly numerous and complex non-life forms. How is it even conceivable that all of this could have happened as some random accident of nature?
I believe strongly that there is a God in the universe. I think that man has done a pathetic job of trying to describe him (we will use the male geneder as that is a historical precedent) or define his interaction with his creation. I am not sure that God interacts with man on a day to day basis or frankly if he interacts at all.
If you have a mind at all and you examine where you live and the incredible system of interdependencies and enourmous number of life types and river systems and mountains, and atmosphere, and weather system, and ad infinitum then I don’t see how you can come away from that and say “Oh, I am sure it was just an accident!”
Why don’t you just jump in front of my car and let Jesus save you? If I can hit the brakes in time, then Jesus saves. If I can’t, then you go to heaven because you were trying to show me the lord. Also, I wouldn’t be mad if you stopped me (just as I’m not mad at your proselytizing) and I would stop because some crazy fool just jumped in front of my car! Problem solved. Twice! Air-tight, baby! Wow. I’m convinced. Christianity is sweet.
Did you know that limbo was JUST abolished? A christian construct that kept unbaptized babies away from god? That’s just wrong. Imagine just getting to heaven behind millions of screaming kids! It would make a baby-filled red-eye from CA look like heav… Errr. These things are human inventions! Galileo was only recently pardoned! The last auto-da-fe was in the 1850s! Long live the pope (former Hitler Youth)! Long live Tammy Faye Bakker’s mascara! Long live supersition! Let us proclaim the mystery of faith!
“As to whether or not there is a God, I cannot see how anyone can deny that.”
Unaskable question = unquestionable answer. Nice! The fact that you believe in something (or not) doesn’t make it so. In my heart, I “believe” that there is no god, but I can’t really know either way. It’s not a cop-out to be agnostic. It’s just that the question “Is there a god” has no answer because it’s not provable, not matter what you use as proof.
Throwing ID into the argument, whether you know that you are doing it or not, will only confuse you. You can say “it’s too complex to be not god” as day long, but that PROVES nothing. It could be just your opinion because you don’t understand how things work.
“then I don’t see how you can come away from that and say “Oh, I am sure it was just an accident!— And I don’t see how you can say, “Oh I am sure that it’s god” How do you know any better? Oh yeah, the bi-bull!
For those who feel the need to warn others about the punishment awaiting them for not being a christian: Do you not realize how many people of various other religions would say the same to you? And you would rightly reject their claims as nonsense. Your religion is not special. It is not different. Large parts of it are in fact borrowed from other religions.
There have been hundreds, maybe thousands of gods proposed throughout history. The only difference between me and a christian is that I believe in one less of those gods than they do. You should try applying the same logic to your religion that you apply to others. I assure you, having done it myself, it does not hold up any better to scrutiny. Christianity is a superstition like all other religions.
And gnostic, I agree, “I don’t know” is a perfectly acceptable answer, and much preferable to just making something up, which is what the authors of the books of the bible did.
Read Bertrand Russel’s “Why I am not a Christian” from 1927. It’s a little long, but worth it. It’s wonderful. So articulate and true. Seriously, it would be difficult to argue with. Copy and paste this into your browser:
http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html
Or click it. Apparently it did convert into a link.
“Not all forms of christianity believe baptism is a cleanse all sins program. Like catholicism. Oh wait, is that the biggest form of christianity in the world?” quote from Codemac
No, Catholicism practices that even easier form of “eclesiastical Wite-Out” called confession.
We should have evolved beyond a need for god by this point.
It has to be obvious to even the most devout christians, that there are alot of parts of the bible that are hard to understand and accept, even if they are 100% correct. I’m not here to say whether or not anyone is correct. This is the only thing that I will bring to the table. Why would G/god let his word be written in a way that is confusing to so many people. He is all powerful let us not forget, so he could have somehow found a way to manifest his great complexities in simple structure that makes them easy to understand. And he is all knowing, so he knows there are going to be some people that, with the free will that he chose to give us, chose not to believe his word either because they’ve worked it out in their minds that it is incorrect or simply can’t understand it. Also, science proves that there are genes that people are inherited with that will determine whether or not one is likely to be religious. Not to any specific religion but it determines whether or not a person will seek the need of an established popular religion for spiritual fullfillment or if he can find fullfillment on his own(and dont give me none of that “you will never be feel fulfilled until you accept christ” bullshit). Taking all of those things into consideration, Why would such a loving and merciful G/god condemn one to hell because he can not find it within himself to accept something that he cannot understand or feels that he can prove wrong. This supposed merciful god of christianity knows that since he gave us all free will, some of “his” people WILL choose a viewpoint that is not in harmony with the one that he wants us to take. So why would condemn one to hell for something that he knows is obviously going to happen. That would be like the president of the united states torturing one because he didn’t believe in “constitutional” values. If God really is like that, and he is going to hold a grudge against me because i can’t accept the fact that by not accepting him he will send you to hell, then he isn’t anyone i want to spend my eternity with. I personally believe in a god that would would be more merciful than that. And I don’t want to hear any “you haven’t researched the bible enough” bullshit. What I wrote is based on one fact alone. Those who do not accept jesus christ go to hell. And that doesn’t take any research to find out. And i hope you guys all have fun in heaven, because, to quote Brian Shelby, “without the bitter baby, the sweet aint ever as sweet.”
If you like this post, you should check out the rest of the site. That James Allen is one clever fellow.
What I wrote was based on one supposed fact alone. Not fact. just clarifying.
ALL THE SHEEP COME TOGETHER TO FEEL SECURE IN THEIR INSECURITES.
you all shouldn’t even be trying to counter our comments because if you believe in jesus then you dont have to defend yourself, you have nothing to worry about, the only good that could come of it is that you convert one of us to your side. and there are 2 things that don’t change in people baby, and thats politics and religion, so preach to a different crowd.
What I wrote was based on one supposed fact alone. Not fact. just clarifying.
ALL THE SHEEP COME TOGETHER TO FEEL SECURE IN THEIR INSECURITES.
you all shouldn’t even be trying to counter our comments because if you believe in jesus then you dont have to defend yourself, you have nothing to worry about, the only good that could come of it is that you convert one of us to your side. and there are 2 things that don’t change in people baby, and thats politics and religion, so preach to a different crowd.
I beleive that religion is a crutch for the weak minded.
Now since all you god/bible advocates insist on having proof, as in “You cannot disprove god” and “you cannot disprove the bible” well why dont you PROVE to me that the bible wasn’t originally written as entertainment? I don’t care about disprooving things, why dont you prove god exists? “Oh well you can’t you just have to have faith” is what you’ll say, and its the biggest bunch of malarchy EVER.
Consider this as well. The sheer size of the universe is mind boggling, would be quite a feat for even a god to create. And yet earth is so infintesimally small in comparison. So lets say you create a sanwich, earth would be less than the size of an atom in comparison. So there are sentient beings on this particle in your sandwich and they prey to you all the time. Do you hear their prayers? Would you even care what they were saying if you could?
…are2:
Oh, but religion does change in people. When someone is vulnerable, the are often surrounded by a religious group reminiscent of a pack of wolves. Their insecurities are used, and they are accepted, at least until they are hooked. I’ve seen it happen. I have never seen a secure, happy person converted, except FROM religion.
aubrey:
Let me get this straight: You believe in christianity just on the outside chance that it is correct? I prefer to know the truth, no matter how painful it is. I am sure that if there were a god, he would understand that we need to try to figure things out logically, not from fear. If I had the power of a god I would not fault people for not believing in me if it was the most sensible conclusion. Does it hurt God if we don’t believe? Otherwise there can be no vengeance for it.
I’m a Christian, but I still lack faith. I wish there was something to keep me from the verge of disbelief, some hardcore PROOF. Otherwise, by the time I’m 18, BAM goes the gun and I start disbelieving…
…but I still think there’s a God.
Many people accept there is a God. so what to believe?
a) one’s own ideas of what this God may be like
b) the only sound testimony we have from someone claiming to kno all about it, infact, to be God himself
its not like we have loads of evidential views of God. i see only one big piece of evidence (yes, its not watertight, but its pretty good compared to anything else) so aslong as someone belives in a ‘god’ anyway, isnt it sensible to follow whatever evidence thre is about him?
Was there really a Jesus?
Are you sure?
Why?
Don’t say you just “feel” that it is so. If simply “feeling” made things real, the truth (facts) would be a muddled mess, impossible to grasp. Our modern world could not exist if the feelings in people’s hearts were given the same weight as verifiable facts.
What evidence is there that Jesus existed besides biblical hearsay (the unsupported accounts in the gospels), and a couple fleeting mentions in unreliable texts (such as Josephus) that were kept and altered in the early Catholic church, copied untold times by monks for centuries?
None.
Research it, see if you can find any solid evidence, the type of evidence that most serious historians would agree with, that would hold up in a court of law.
Why would a person speak or write of an ancient personality as if they were real (as many have done in these comments), when there is absolutely no historical evidence that this person ever even existed?
Remember, there is much evidence, good solid evidence from many independent sources, for thousands of other historical personages going back for thousands of years beyond even ancient Egypt. In other words if someone was real and important they leave tracks that can be followed, and dots that connect. There is solid evidence, evidence historians can agree on, for the reallity of historical personages far older than Jesus.
Another way to look at this:
Did Hercules exist?
It’s a very similar story to Jesus, only much older. Half-man half-god, marked for death by an older male who felt threatened when he was an infant, no details of his childhood, great magical powers as an adult, went to the afterlife and came back with a message for the world, left absolutely no heirs (these types of heros never leave heirs), supported only by hearsay accounts.
How about the thousands of other mythical figures before Jesus and after, that fit this half-man half-god died to save his people pattern precisely? Are they all totally false, but Jesus is real? Why are they so similar?
Were these similar stories simply created by coincidence, over and over for eons, and they just happen to match the Jesus story in many important ways? Does that make logical sense? Isn’t there a pattern here if one cares to look at it?
Doesn’t it make more sense that the Jesus story stems from an important archetype in human nature, a story that keeps being told in different ways? Couldn’t it be just another example of what Lord Raglan called the priest-king myth that is as old as civilization itself?
One more thing:
If our current world ended, would our stories survive?
You bet they would, the good ones.
If we could jump ahead in time a few thousand years what might we find?
Maybe a world full of people worshipping something called “The Force”, memorizing the words of a hero savior in white called Luke Skywalker and arguing about him as if he were real on some website.
See what I am trying to say?
Wouldn’t you think those people had confused reality and myth?
Don’t you think that happens all the time?
“None of them offer any more evidence than any other.”
Not exactly open-minded.
Incidentally, it is not true either.
Hi Jim,
Just checking in and wanted to point you to a site, http://www.earlychristianwritings.com and see what you thought. these are historical documents from the Nag Hamadi library that have been carbon dated to a time before organized “church”. May offer some insight about the reality of Jesus even if you do not believe in His heritage. Take a look at the writing of Pilate. Also, there are other cultures that even recognized Jesus as a very special world figure, such as the Al-Quran. I don’t think I would attack this historically if I were you.
No longer a Christian? You never were a Christian!
I love your post on this man. It is spot on, you hit the points that every christian needs to ask themeselves. I especially like the paragraph where you talk about the boy born in a rain forest and dies saving his people. Very good stuff!
I came over here from Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. Bravo, man. Bravo. Very, very well said.
spyderkl:
Thanks. It’s amazing to me how much controversy this generated.
James:
What surprises me is that this thread has not degenerated yet into the nastiness that religious threads usually do! You make excellent points, but there is only one reason I am not a Christian anymore - logic. There is absolutely no proof of God’s existence. Religious people say the universe and organisms are too complicated to have come about without an intelligent creator. If that is the case, the creator is too complicated to have come about without being created, and so forth. Besides, who are we to say it could not have come about from the laws of nature? We don’t understand them yet. That’s what science is for.
Fred:
A person who believes that Christ is the son of God is a Christian, so he obviously was. Stop playing with words.
[someone]
If you keep wanting to believe, you will probably find an excuse, but you will be deceived. Instead of wanting to believe in God, believe in yourself first. Have the courage to research the issue, and look objectively at people’s arguments. Be cynical of both sides and see who can stand up to it without being emotional. No singing, no brainwashing, just logic. Most people forget to do that.
Science/math is far too complex to have happened by chance.
Not to quibble, but science and math do not happen by chance. Science is a search for what can be known through hypothesis, experimentation and observation. Mathmatics is a man made creation of logical thinking.
Your first arguement that the so called “Word of God” has been altered over the years is 100% correct. Here’s a phrase attributed to Jesus in it’s correct form.
“And I say to you that the new and open minded will inherit the Earth”
The Greek word for “New and Open Minded” was translated as “Meek” in the King James version of the Bible. Tell that it doesn’t make more sense when properly translated and then tell me that the Bible is the “Word of God” without error. The only error that’s happening here is that too many people take way too seriously a book that was written 2000 years ago. I think we’ve grown a little since then. Don’t you?
Well, that all sounds bad, and if any of it were necessary parts of Christianity that would be even worse. But none of it is. I’m sorry to hear you went to a poisonous church, but that experience is not the universal one.
how about the fact that there is no proof?
[...] I would just like to point out that this may have been the very first successful defense against Godwin’s Law in the history of the Internet. Go me. Share and Enjoy:These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. [...]
Two gods with…,
Is it just me? Your ‘icons’ are not links. I googled Godwin’s law though, good point.
Green Knight,
If you call that a poisonous church, then most churches are (if not downright EPA violation deadly!). I’ve seen serveral mainstream and small new churches, and never one that accepted people who raise tough questions.
Which icons are you refering to?
Hey, James (not James Allen) -
What do you know about witchcraft, anyway? It’s just a way of putting your energy out into the world to bring about a desired effect. Like a prayer, but without channeling it through any deity.
I’m a Wiccan because it’s a great way to learn about other religions and how we are all more similar than different. We do magick, yes, but magick is merely science that we haven’t figured out yet.
Electricity and chemistry were like magic until they became widely understood and used, just like homeopathic medicine today seems “spooky” because it’s way of working is not well understood (but science is finally getting a handle on this as well.)
The biggest problem with Christianity, as I see it, is the whole “go forth and make desciples of all nations” thing. The majority of religions in the world don’t prosletyze. The one that do are the ones that cause the most trouble. If we could all be happy practicing (or not, as the case may be) our own religions, the world would be a much better place. Why do you think Turkey isn’t embroiled in all of the middle eastern turmoil, even though it is a predominatley Muslim nation? Prosletyzing is illegal there! As in you go to the dreaded Turkish prison for doing it.
Hello again,
I am replying to Paul (and anyone else who is interested) b/c he asked why I mention Purgatory b/c it is not in the Bible. In the Bible, itself, it is stated that not everything Jesus said and did is in the Bible b/c there wouldn’t be enough books to hold it. Therefore, not everything has to be in the Bible to be true and to chose to believe in it. Also, at the end of the world, there will be no Purgatory b/c Christ will come and the Last Judgement will take place; that is in the Bible.
Yes, the Church has faults b/c people are fallible. But the Church Christ instituted with Peter as head (first Pope) is the Catholic Church. In life there are absolutes. Someone here said that God would not make anyone have to believe in Him to be given eternal life in Heaven. Only God knows everyones’ hearts and He only will judge everyone. On a much smaller scale, you would not be given a job in a company if you did not dress properply, have knowledge of it, and agree to certain regulations the company has, or another example…you would be kicked off a (ie. sports) team if you chose not to follow the rules, and another, kids are punished by parents when they do not behave. If we in our small way have rules to get certain things/results, then certainly the God of the universe can state certain conditions for salvation! But different from us, He is forgiving if we confess our sins (Sacrament of Confession/personal confession); He is merciful and all goodness, therefore we can come to Him anytime we want. Of course we don’t understand everything b/c God is much, much greater and wiser than us.
Moreover, it makes great sense to have an authority in the Church. There are authorities all around us in our world (leaders, police, doctors, teachers, parents, etc.) If these people were not there (and not all are good, I agree, but overall they are), we would be a chaotic and messed up place that would eventually not survive.
Authority is everywhere b/c certain people are educated, wiser than us on certain matters, and it is ingrained in our humanity such as parents to children. (Try letting kids do whatever they want! Well, we are God’s children.) Therefore in the same way, the Church has its authority in the Pope and the Magisterium (Cardinals, Bishops, and priests, deacons, religious sisters, and even in the laity level). To me that type of organization makes sense. (Of course some of them are not very good, just as in all other authority figures but we don’t disregard all doctors b/c several may be bad, and we don’t bash all parents b/c some abuse their children, etc.) We need these structures to have a society at all and we need it in the Church to have proper teaching and interpretation of God’s Word and His Will. Let’s see them as a gifts, not as burdens.
To those who insist God is a female, God is a spiritual being made up of male and female characteristics that is why the Bible states, “male and female He created them…in His image and likeness”. We speak in genders b/c we are human beings.
Also, indulgences are okay b/c some people want to do them.
God does ask us to worship Him and pray to Him. If this indulgence tradition helps people b/c closer to God, then it is a good thing. Also, the Bible states, “faith w/o works is dead!”
God and Church does not fail, only people fail at times and that is okay b/c we are fallible beings. We just need to get up and keep going, keep asking, and keep seeking; God understands that.
Some people on this site are very nasty, arrogant, and irreverent and rude in their remarks. I know one thing, God would not approve of that. Possibly it is b/c they are angry and protest too much! If you truly are seeking whether or not there is a God in a good and reasonable way, you would not be so angry and willing to lash out at believers. I also agree that some believers are too forceful in their opinions. We are to act with love and kindness, and as St. Francis said, “use words only if you must.” The way you treat others, your example, your demeanor, and your attitude speaks much more loudly than any words. Negativity and hostility pushes people away, while our beliefs spoken in a loving manner draws them to us. As the saying goes, “Actions speak louder than words!”
May God bless all of you and lead you to truth and peace,
Mishe
Rejecting the majority opinion of belief in the supernatural is an easy decision for someone humane, objective and reflective.. but just how do atheists effect humane change in the world?
I don’t know that I understand your question, but I’m not an athiest anyway.
Are we done here, or are we taking the sabbath day off?
I read the Bertand Russel piece and it’s still quite relevant even in this day and age! I started feeling much the same way after I took Survey of Western Civilization in college.
BTW, the Russel piece is really not that much longer than some of the diatribes found here!
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. You sound very foolish. The Word of God (Bible) is just as real as God.
Ps 53:1 ¶ > The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
You sound very foolish! The Word of God (Bible) is just as real as God.
Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 ¶ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
You need to fully surrender yourself to understand the Bible, until you do that you will continue to be in darkness.
“You sound very foolish. The Word of God (Bible) is just as real as God.”
Well, that is 2 things we agree on. Can we also agree that quoting scripture to non-believers is also foolish? Why would I care what it says in a book I don’t believe in? You might as well quote from Betty Crocker!
I’m curious, you aren’t a christian, you don’t believe in what their book says and you also say you are not an atheist. So what do you claim to be? Agnostic?
How could an atheist affect humane change in the world. I dunno! Maybe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU that way?
Also, removing bibles from hotels would be a good project.
Exodus 21:7 “If a man sells his daughter to be a female servant, she shall not go out as the male servants do.”
“I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?”
Angie, Agnostic probably sums my beliefs up best. From wikipedia: “Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the (truth) values of certain claims—particularly theological claims regarding the existence of God, gods, or deities—are unknown, inherently unknowable, or incoherent, and therefore, irrelevant to life.” That pretty much sounds like me. Although, I would probably phrase it as “should be irrelevant to life” because it is obvious that it is not irrelevant to many people.
GnosticGospels:
I don’t think bible should be removed from hotel rooms. That is just private citizens interacting with private businesses. Athough I do find this to be an interesting idea.
Gnostic, I’ve seen that youtube before. It’s really good.
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” Hebrews 9:27
Are you sure that the Bible not 100% innerant, perhaps those that shake thier fists in the face of God should actually conduct an investigation into the accuracy of the King James Version of the Bible and determine for themselves if it is in fact true. Because as the verse states you will be judged. Ask yourself, are you certain you are correct in your believe, enough to stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and give and account for your life. I suggest that you start with the book of John it is the fourth book of the New Testament. If you were to die today are you 100% certain that Heaven would be your home for all eternity, if not please read the book of John with and open heart and mind, and ask God to prove to you it it is true, but be willing to accept anything God shows you.
If it isn’t inerrant then why does Jesus have two different lineages listed? Why does 1 Kings suggest that Pi=3? Why are the animals created before Adam in Genesis 1 and after him in Genesis 2? How about a whole page of biblical errors: http://www.freethoughtdebater.com/tenbiblecontradictions.htm
Could copying errors occur?
http://www.didyouknow.cd/Bible/errors.htm
Those are all errors that happened after the printing press and were quickly caught because (a)they were obvious and (b) the printing press meant that most people knew what the Bible was supposed to say. But you want me to believe that less obvious errors couldn’t have shown up? No thanks
Perhaps you should study the Bible for yourself rather than rely on the opinion of others, ultimatley you are responsible for yourself. The Bible contains no errors, you have listed three areas in which you propose contains errors. First of all Gensis 1 does list the animals first then man, Genesis 2 does not even tell about the creation of the animals, simply the naming thereof. Genesis 2 does describe the creation of Eve however, she was created after the animals, but Adam was created before the animals. You should read Genesis 2 for yourself and make a serious investigation into what the passage actually says.
Secondly I have no idea what you are referring to in I Kings (IE: pi=3). Also tell me exactly in the Bible where there are two conflicting lineages of Jesus, the truth is there are no conflicts and you will not be able to find any, but if you can please tell me the Chapter and Verses of such conflict.
Lastly where is this “whole page of Biblical errors” the truth is there is no whole page of Biblical errors. I will not read the articles you cut and pasted proposing such a position, if one exists you tell me where it is. What I mean is if you can prove errors, you must study yourself and prove them from you own studies. You cannot rely on the faulty opinions of those who take such heretical positions. It seems as though you are relying on the opinion of others to convince you of Biblical errors. You are ultimaltely responsible for the mind that God has given you. If you have the ability to read and study the scriptures, but rather choose to rely on the false opinions of others you will be held accountable for you decision not to determine the truth for yourself. I implore you, please for you own sake read and study the Bible for yourself and ask God to prove to you if the Bible is in fact true. I know that if you make a serious attempt to read, study and understand the Bible and are willing to accept the possibility that God’s word is true, He will show you.
Remember “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:†Hebrews 9:27
One typo in the first paragraph. The correct statement is: “Adam was created after the animals and Eve was created after Adam”
Just a thought. This is a question to you personally.Prove that you love your family…If you cannot, what does that mean?
James Allen — “I don’t think bible should be removed from hotel rooms. That is just private citizens interacting with private businesses.”
Fair enough. Just being cheeky.
James A — Great link!
Stephen — Please re-read the “Havemal”, more colloquially known as the Viking Bible. If you will only open your heart to Odin and be filled with his spirit you will be saved. Are you 100% sure that the Valkyries won’t take you to Valhalla when you die in battle? Please, please reconsider for the sake of your soul. Every word is true
Stephen — Please re-read the Koran. If you will only open your heart to Allah and be filled with his spirit you will be saved. Are you 100% sure that you won’t have 40 virgins when you die? Please, please reconsider for the sake of your soul. Every word is true.
Stephen — Please re-read the Upanishads. If you will only open your heart and be filled with Vishnu’s spirit you will be saved. Are you 100% sure that you won’t be reincarnated when you die? Please, please reconsider for the sake of your soul. Every word is true.
Stephen — Please re-read the Torah. If you will only open your heart to Yaweh and be filled with his spirit and wait for the true Messiah, you will be saved. Are you 100% sure that you don’t have the wrong Messiah? Please, please reconsider for the sake of your soul. Every word is true.
Here’s a good link, IMO.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557
I actually just read that yesterday, GG
Jason, I cannot prove to you that I love my family, but I can prove it to them. In the same way, I cannot prove to you that the Bible is 100% true, nor can I prove this to gnostic gospel, however if you are willing God can prove it to both of you. Ulitimately you are responsible for what you do with your lives.
Remember “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:†Hebrews 9:27
lol, gnostic, that’s too funny. And a good point, too, since every religion claims to be the “right” one. I guess Stephen has just as much chance of being right as any of the others.
But you know, I don’t think reading a book will make mythology into truth. In the four years that I was a southern baptist, I read the bible a lot and I even read it straight through, and I memorized parts, and I prayed every day, and I went to church, and I was “saved” and I was baptized, and I told others about Jesus. When I would occasionally have doubts, I would take the advice of other christians by praying for faith and reading the bible more. I would ignore any evidence that I might be wrong. But gradually over the past year I began to allow myself to think and it’s like a floodgate was opened, because I was holding my mind and my personality back in order that I could believe. Belief in god required that I suspend my rational thought processes, and I was willing to do that because of the payoff I was hoping for.
That was kind of long, I know, but my point is that it is pretty pointless to argue with a “true believer.” They will not listen to anything that contradicts what they have already decided is the truth. Even if you could prove beyond any doubt that there is no god, many of them would probably still not listen. They can always just say that the devil is using you to decieve them. Until they decide to allow for the possibility that they might be wrong, nothing anyone says will make any difference.
Stephen, I have read the Bible for my self and Genesis 2 is pretty clear that Adam was created, then the animals, then Eve. Genesis 1 is also clear that the animals were created, then Adam and Eve created at the same time.
Here is where the value of pi comes from:
Since the circumference of a circle is its diameter * pi, pi is equal to the circumference of a circle divided by its diameter. 30 divided by 10 is 3, which is obviously not the correct value of pi. I would think that the inerrant Word of God would give a more accurate value of pi. It is also listed in 1 Kings chapter 7:
Jesus’s lineage:
Matthew 1 clearly refers to 14 generations from Babylonian exhile to the Messiah, but only lists 13. Also Matthew 1 lists Jacob as Joseph’s father and Luke 3 lists Heli.
These are things that I have researched for myself any one of the 3 is an error. For the Bible to be inerrant it couldn’t contain even one, so what is the point of me researching all the errors listed on the link above? I just listed that to show to you that there are many many errors in the Bible.
Jason, I’m not asking you to believe that I love my family. You wish to convince me of your god’s existence.
The love that I have for my family is contained entirely within me. The god you are asking me to believe in would exist outside of all existense.
I have created the love I have of my family; it exists as long as I believe in it. You claim that your god exists whether or not anyone believes in him or not.
Your suggestion is akin to the artist talking to the blind man. The blind man says, “All the world is black.” To which the artist replies, “No, my friend, the world is full of wonderous colors, if only you could see them.” “Then you must prove to me the existence of the color red.” The artist can no more prove the color red exists to a blind man than I can prove to you that I love my family, but it doesn’t change the fact that the world is full of colors.
The difference between that and my suggestion is that we are all blind when it comes to proving the existence of God. It would be like a society of blind people believing in color because they had a book written 2000 years ago that said someone saw red once. Maybe if you were blind you would choose to believe in the color, but personally, I’d want some proof.
Stephen –
Remember “All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest.” Leviticus 11.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Quoting from a book that I don’t believe is the “word of god” doesn’t prove anything. Check out this logic:
I am attractive to women. Remember — “She pulled me down to the bed and ripped off my pants…” Penthouse Forum 11:4
Right on Sara. I forgot what famous person said “There is no sense trying to reason a man out of something he was not reasoned into”, sorry if the quote is not exact. But here I go anyway:
To all you believers: Think back to when you started believing. Were you weighing evidence at the time, and did you come to a conclusion, or did the arguments in favor come later? Were you in a group who believed, or in an emotional state?
Marty — Johnathan Swift “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.â€
“Think back to when you started believing.” I would argue that, for most, there was never a time where they didn’t believe. The religious meme is usually passed from parents to child and not to believe is not even a thing that most could imagine (”There HAS to be a god”). I recall the exact point in time (freshman year in high school, standing in the cafeteria line) when I realized that it was even possible NOT to believe in god. Sweet, sweet liberation! Reason rather than unfounded faith!
Also the anti-religious writers in a course “Religious and Anti-Religious Thinkers” that I took in college had far more compelling arguments. Once you realize that god is the equivalent of the adult Santa Claus, and that faith and reason, as well as religion and science, are separate entities, the healing can begin.
James Allen
I cannot prove to you that God exists, only He can. Just like I cannot prove to you that I love my family. The fact that I cannot prove to you that I love my family does not mean that I do not in fact love them. However, I can prove to them that I love them in the same way only God can prove to you that His Word is true. You said that you want proof, this I understand, put another way you want proof to be able to have faith that the Word of God is true.
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God”. Romans 10:17
If you truly want proof, don’t look for it in man’s wisdom, you will always be let down. Once again I cannot prove to you that the Bible is true, only God can, and the cool thing is, if you are truly willing, He will.
I will try to provide answers to the questions you posted as soon as possible.
Remember “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:†Hebrews 9:27
You know, some scientists have suggested there is a structure in the brain that predisposes us to religious belief. Perhaps that is what is at work when people feel they have a “spiritual” experience, such as talking to a god.
James, for now I will explain the Genesis account. The first chapter of Genesis is an overview of the creation of the earth, to include vegetation, animals, man and woman (all creation is included). This first chapter may be accurately read chronologically, as we notice that God lists the days in which the various elements were created. God created man on the sixth day, which is the same day he created animals, however man is listed after animals. You are correct to assert that man was created after the animals.
Now, onto chapter two, as we said previously God lists for us an overview of creation in chapter 1, now in chapter 2 He lists for us a more specific, although not necessarily chronological account. We notice in v.7 that God created man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. In v.19 we notice also that God created that animals out of the ground and brought them unto Adam. In v. 21-23 we see that God created Eve from one of Adam’s ribs. We see that God has given us a more specific account of the creation of the animals, man and woman. In v.19 we notice that God brought the animals to Adam to be named, no where will you find a contradiction, nowhere does it state that man was created before the animals. The Bible simply states that God brought the animals to be named, this does not list the order in which everything was created. God simply establishes that He created the animals from the ground. If you will notice there is a semi-colon after God describes the specific details regarding the creation of the animals in v.19. This indicates the end of that particular thought, however, the remainder is related, so the sentence continues, and we later see a colon separating the statement that describes the bringing of the animals and the naming of the animals. The section between the semi-colon and colon seems to be injected to indicate that the animals were brough to him, and not that he sought out to name the animals. Try reading the passage direcly before the semi-colon and after the colon, it reads through perfectly, then read it again with the statement in the middle and perhaps you will have a complete understanding of the passage.
In v.18 we notice that God tells us that it is not good that man should be alone; and I will make him an help meet. Notice that God at this point has not created Eve, this is merely the beginning statement of a new paragraph. If you will notice directly to the left of the word is what looks like a backward P with double lines vertical, this indicates the begining of a new paragraph. What is happening here is simply a brief overview of what the following paragraph will state. We see v.21-25 describe the creation of woman and concluding the paragraph and chapter and then chapter 3 begins. Chapter 3 describes the fall of man. Perhaps God chose to tell of the naming of the animals to demonstrate man’s dominion over the earth ( which we also noticed in c.1/v.26. God then tells us that Eve was created to be an help meet for Adam. We see then that Adam had total dominion over the earth, and the portion that describes the naming of the animals makes that even more clear. This establishes for us the process God chose to use to create both animal and man (from the ground). God establishes this in chapter 1, the order of creation therefore, there is now no need to restate the order. God is simply providing us with a more detailed description.
I am a former Police Officer and I routinely wrote incident reports, I have worked cases ranging from murder to rape to robbery to thefts of trash cans. I always started my incident reports by providing an overview and then more specifically describing the who, what, where when and why and how in the body of the report. The overview makes reading the report easier and allows the reader to understand what is happening in the narrative.
A true understanding of the Bible cannot come from reading an article written by mortal man. A person must study for themselves and examine closely every detail to determine the correct interpretation. Ultimately only God can reveal the Bible to mankind, simply reading the posting of somone who opposes the Bible or someone who supports the Bible, will not suffice. I am only telling what God has revealed to me in the last hour (I prayed and asked God to reveal to me what these passages of scripture really mean, I am convinced He has done so). Only God can reveal to you what the Bible really says and if you are willing He will.
II Peter 3:3-9
v.3″Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, v.4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. v.5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: v.6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: v.7 But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. v.8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand year, and a thousand years as one day. v.9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should persih, but that all should come to repentance.”
GnosticGospels: Yes, I am aware that the ONLY major factor that determines religion is the parents’ religion. I was addressing people who are ’saved’ or ‘born again’. Parents bring their kids to church and expose them to songs and sermons about God etc., and a child is defenseless against it. I became an atheist when I was 14 and, as much as I wish there were a God, you are right about the liberation and the healing!
Stephen: Um, can we maybe keep things short enough to read without making a career of it? Quoting scripture to agnostics is pointless.
From your earlier post: “If you truly want proof, don’t look for it in man’s wisdom, you will always be let down. Once again I cannot prove to you that the Bible is true, only God can, and the cool thing is, if you are truly willing, He will.”
God obviously can’t prove anything to you without showing that he exists. If you are truly willing, like I am, the proof is still never there. Only the opportunity to ignore the truth and believe anyway.
http://jdallen.org/funny/kissing-hanks-ass/
Marty, the difference between an honest and a dishonest atheist is whether or not he will admit that he simply does not know whether or not God exists, but is interested in finding out. How wonderful to want to believe in God, I believe that this means that you would be willing to accept proof if offered. As I said previously I cannot prove to you that the Bible is true, but God can. I can say this however, if you will simply pray a prayer something like this “God I don’t know if you do exist, but if you do and you will prove it to me I will accept the truth fully as you reveal it to me, if you truly do exist prove it to me as I read, study and seek to prove or disprove your Word.” Then simply read, study, investigate and make a truly honest inquiry into the book of John, the fourth gospel of the new testament. I am not referring to the other three books of John near The Revelation, but rather the Gospel of John. There are only 21 chapters, you could read the whole thing in under an hour, however in order to truly investigate you will need to conduct actual research, consider using a concordance like Strongs to help clarify words that you don’t understand. I recommend the KJV Bible, if you are willing God will prove to you that the Bible is true and if the Bible is true than obviously God exists.
II Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should persih, but that all should come to repentance.”
Stephen, you are wrong about the difference between honest and dishonest atheists. There is nothing dishonest about being sure that God does not exist. Many christians are dishonest about their doubts, and many more are decieving themselves. Being unsure means you are an agnostic, not an atheist. Yes, I have prayed in a very similar way for God to show me that he exists, but for it to work you must want to believe, and not be looking for the truth. Reading more of the bible would be meaningless, since men wrote it, and as you say, only God can show me that he exists if he does. If you could show me proof, of course I would believe, but in 31 years, no one has been able to, and doesn’t the bible itself state that God will not prove his existence to us? I will never start believing out of emotion. I will only listen to logic. Your only hope of converting anyone is to have them make a ‘leap of faith’, which means suspending logic and reason long enough to ‘feel’ like God is communicating with them. I ask you again, when you started believing, were people around you enthusiastic about Christ, or was sober thought involved, or have you believed since childhood?
Okay, so you are an agnostic, I don’t really believe that a atheist fully believes that God does not exist. Like I said before, if you are willing to be made willing by God and not emotion He will show you. It is a very wise thing to want to know God and you said that you prayed such a prayer, however without the seed of the Word of God faith cannot grow. Romans 10:17 states “So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God” The means simply reading, studying and even investigation will bring faith to those willing to be shown. I want to make one thing perfectly clear, I emphatically agree that mere emotion is NO PROOF OF GOD. I have never belonged to an emotional church in my 23 years since having been saved. I am of the opinion that someone can still experience emotion in church, I mean you can experience emotion just wathcing T.V. The mere existence of emotion does not destroy the validity of a church service. However, I do not believe that emotion is a factor in faith, some might experience emotion sometimes, but the existence of emotion or the lack of emotion does not prove God is working in your life. I am in favor of logic and reason, I am a Psychology minor in college, I am 5 classes away from obtaining my Bachelors degree, I need only 2 Psy. classes to finish my minor. I have studied Psychological processes, I understand treatment methods for addictions for example. It simply defies belief that programs such as AA and NA have a sucess rate of about 3% whereas Bible based programs such as Reformers Unanimous have a sucess rate of about 73%. Emotion cannot explain such results only the influence of God in a person’s life.
Consider this, simply praying by yourself and reading the book of John by yourself, without any other human interaction or influence, will not produce human based peer emotion. After all, you believe that the Bible is just another book, if this is so, certainly you have the fortitude needed to, read, study and conduct an investigation of the book without being unduly influenced by emotion.
In closing please consider this, if God exists and the Bible is true and you die without accepting Jesus you will spend all eternity in Hell. Are you confident enough to say that even though that possibility exists you are not willing to read, study and investigate the book of John to determine if it’s true. What else are you doing now that is any more urgent than inquiring into you eternal destiny. Yes, I am trying to lead you to God, I cannot convince you by my own reasoning of the validity of the Word of God, only He can. But, know this, I love a person I have never met nor know, so much that I am willing to spend time telling you there is a way to know if the Bible is true, if you are willing.
Matthew 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
Stephen, if you can’t make your point in half a page, you are REALLY trying too hard. Since you won’t answer, I have to assume that you are a christian because your parents are (were). There is no logic in that, since most people on this earth disagree with your parents.
Also, no, I am not an agnostic, I am an atheist, and yes, we DO fully believe that God does not exist. “Are you confident enough to say that even though that possibility exists you are not willing to read, study and investigate the book of John to determine if it’s true.” First of all, that possibility does not exist. Second of all, you are using an emotional argument, trying to scare me into believing. This has been done for many centuries by the catholic church, and others. It would be irrational for me to fall for this. Third of all, I cannot get God to come to me by reading the bible. If he existed, he would have to decide whether or not to respond to my prayers. It wasn’t very logical to do so, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt, and there is no response. God does not come to any of us and show his existence. We can choose to believe or not.
Stephen:
If you die and there is no god, then you will have wasted much of your precious life on something that didn’t matter instead of focusing on things that are real and do matter.
Also, if you die and the Koran is true, then you will burn in hell for all eternity.
If you die and the Jews are right, you’re still in trouble.
And what about all of these gods?
http://jdallen.org/history/memorial-service/
If we really want to be safe, perhaps we should all accept all of those gods, since we don’t really know which one is the “right” one.
Or perhaps humanity should accept the truth that there is no evidence for the existence of any god(s) and start spending our collective energies on more fruitful occupations than killing eachother over religion (a few suggestions might be working to end hunger, cure AIDS, and immunize children).
Okay, but please know this, if there ever comes a time in your life in which you have no where else to turn, you can turn to God and I believe He will show you. What I mean by this is, if you ever experience loss, trajedy, pain etcetera such that you feel you can no longer bear the weight, turn to God. The book of John was written for the unbeliever, so that you could believe.
It has been said that Christianity is a crutch, I suggest that it is a hospital bed and we are the patients. We were made to worship God and rely upon God completely, I do so daily. Everything I have said, I say with a heart of love (for anyone reading this), love which by the way I would not know without Jesus. Trajedy, heartache, pain, crisis will come, if I have done nothing more than tell you where to turn when they do come, then, To God Be The Glory.
Yup, that’s exactly when christians want us to turn to God, when we are vulnerable and desperate. That is the only time most people will succumb to something so irrational.
Anything else to discuss?
If there is no such thing as God, then how does one explain the intelligent design of the human body? For example: how the body repairs itself after an injury, the miracale of how a human grows in the womb of a woman, childbirh, the design and structure of DNA, etc. etc. etc…
We athiests like to use science to explain those things, Suellen.
[...] File this one in the ‘irony in advertising’ section, but I had to show you some wonderful magic of Google’s AdSense. I was browsing through the most recent Carnival of the Godless, over at Revolvo Inritus, and linked through to The Allen Almanac, and a fairly interesting post on why “Allen” is no longer a Christian. The post itself is good, but I have to admit I was laughing my ass off even harder at something else. [...]
Suellen, Evolution does explain it. Most scientists agree, and most of THEM believe that God used evolution. Trillions of creatures have lived without some or all of these amazing abilities, but died out. The very few that had a noticeable advantage, just by accident, survived and passed on these genes. This has happened many times over hundreds of millions of years, to bring us to the current point in evolution. We don’t understand all of it, but those are the basics.
Suellen,
If there is a God explain the unintelligent design of the body. Explain why we breath and eat through the same hole? Of what use is the tail bone (some people don’t have one…evolution at work) Why aren’t our eyes able to see more of the visual spectrum (infrared and ultraviolet for example) In fact, whay aren’t our eyes as intelligently made as the octopus? (Octopus have no ‘blind spots’) or as good as the eagle? And my favorite, how is our pathway for our waste products also the pathway for our procreation products intelligent? If there is an intelligent designer why have over 99% of all species gone extinct? What a waste of time and effort. I could go on and on.
Good point. Also, why do our bodies not work correctly sometimes? God sure did a crappy job.
WOW, MAN, SOME OF THESE PEOPLE SHOULD BE PREACHING. I HAVE DONE THE RESEARCH, AND THE THINKING. I TRIED TO FIND THE CHRISTIAN GOD BECAUSE I THOUGHT I MISSED SOMETHING, THIS WAS AN HONEST ATTEMPT ON MY PART. TODAY, I AM A SECULAR HUMANIST. I’M THE GUY YOU SHOULD BE TALKING TO. MY FIRST SUGGESTION IS TO CALL A CANADIAN BOOK STORE, AND BUY A COPY OF “FAREWELL TO GOD” BY CHARLES TEMPLETON. THIS GUY USED TO PREACH WITH BILLY GRAHAM, THEY WERE FRIENDS. YOU CAN’T BUY THIS BOOK IN THE UNITED STATES…SAD! HE WRITES:
“THERE ARE OF COURSE, REASONS WHY MANY CLING TO THE BIBLICAL ACCOUNT OF THE CREATION AND FALL OF MAN: IT HAS BEEN THE ROCK ON WHICH THEIR CONCEPT OF GOD,SIN, REDEMPTION, AND LIFE AFTER DEATH IS BASED………MY PURPOSE……TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT IT IS NO LONGER POSSIBLE FOR AN INFORMED MAN OR WOMAN TO BELIEVE THAT, FOR ALL IT’S ANCIENT WISDOM……THE BIBLE IS EITHER A RELIABLE ACCOUNT OF OUR ORIGINS AS HUMAN BEINGS OR….THE INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD.”
MR TEMPLETON THEN PICKS APART MANY BIBLE PASSAGES, A GREAT BOOK. IF YOU LIKE A MORE SCIENTIFIC TAKE, TRY “THE WHOLE SHEBANG” BY TIMOTHY FERRIS. THIS IS A BOOK ON COSMOLOGY, BUT IN THE BACK THERE IS A CONTRARIAN THEOLOGICAL AFTERWORD:
“FIRST IT WAS ALWAYS WOEFULLY ANTHROPOCENTRIC. DESIGN IMPLIES A PURPOSE, AND GOD’S PUPOSE IN DESIGNING THE UNIVERSE WAS ASSUMED TO BE EITHER TO MAKE US OR MAKE THINGS NICE FOR US OR BOTH……THE LARGER THE UNIVERSE LOOMS THE SILLIER IT BECOMES TO MAINTAIN THAT IT WAS ALL PUT TOGETHER FOR US……….CARBON IS THE FOURTH MOST ABUNDANT COSMIC ELEMENT AFTER HYDROGEN, HELIUM, AND OXYGEN. IT IS ALSO THE BASIS FOR TERRESTRIAL LIFE.”
IN OTHER WORDS CONSIDERING THIS, AND THE AMOUNT OF STARS IN OUR UNIVERSE, LIFE HAS TO EXIST SOMEWHERE OUT THERE. DO OUR LITTLE GREEN FRIENDS BELIEVE IN JESUS? SADLY, I COULD GO ON…..THE CRAVING TO BELONG….DESIRE FOR CERTAINTY. FINDING A PARENT WHO PROVIDES PROTECTION AND COMFORT. WE, AS REASONABLE PEOPLE, ARE FIGHTING EMOTIONAL INSECURITY.
Nice comment, but watch the caps next time.
SIR, IT IS A PAIN IN MY KEISTER TO SHIFT ALL THE TIME….. MY APPOLOGIES….. I AM NOT YELLING … IT STANDS OUT… AND EXPIDITES MY TYPING….. I DON’T UNDERSTAND WHY SOME PEOPLE CAN’T GET OVER THIS…….JEEEZE!
Well, I (and almost everyone else on the Internet) find it annoying and rude. Since this is my site, I don’t have to get over it. If you don’t want to use the shift key, then type in lowercase.
ok james, that’s fair. i was going to say something like “your friendly neighborhood caps lock agnostic” but i’m afraid that joke is moot. sorry, i tend to joke around, you see, i’m an entertainer in condos and nursing homes here in florida
to the theists that say this can’t be a random system:
it is very hard to make a random system. we tend to think of random as haphazard, milk bottle fall off the back of the truck, type thing. it is much more complicated than that. many variables interacting, over a period of time, produce chaos. but this conceals a system that is far more complex than we can comprehend. you say it’s random… ok prove it. how can you say 6783091 is random….. it’s probably somebody’s telephone number.
Okay so I recently posted the answer to the question concerning the Genesis account I believe it was answered satisfactorily. Therefore, I now turn to the passages in II Chronicles and I Kings.
2 Chronicles Chapter 4:2
Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
1 Kings 7:23
And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
The altar (4:1). The impressive altar, 30 feet square and 15 feet high, was the first object seen as a person entered the temple court. Like the altar of the tabernacle, it witnessed to the fact that none might approach God except through sacrifice (Heb. 8:2-3; 9:12).
The “sea†(4:2-5). The dimensions of this great bowl have been the subject of critics to determined to show that the Bible is inaccurate. The argument is that when the circumference of the sea is divided by its diameter, it does not produce the value of pi (3.14159265). Thus, they say, the Bible is clearly “wrong†about the dimensions. But, if the 30 cubits is measured around the inside rim, and the diameter is measured across the top, to include the “hand-breadth†(3 inch) width of the rim, the outside circumference actually would approximate pi! The Bible is reliable!
sacrifice…..you mean a burnt offering right?…
templeton:
“in many cases the sacrifice required an animal: a bull, a goat, a lamb…..the throat was slit and the blood poured at the foot of the altar. the animal was skinned, beheaded, and the legs removed….kidneys, bowels, and fat burned in the flame. as moses told his people, “the fragrance of the offering will be pleasing to god.”
go to judges 11:30…jephthah sacrificed his only daughter in this manner because he made a pact with god……i thought holding snakes was bad!
concerning kings….i thought that was about solomon building a house for the lord, not the creation…… 1 kings 11,3…”and he had seven hundred wives…and three hundred concubines”?…mr. solomon was a sex machine to be sure.
[...] James Allen presents Why I am no longer a christian posted at The Allen Almanac, saying, “It’s basically a bullet list of reasons why I left the christian faith followed by an interesting discussion between believers and non-believers that somehow has managed to stay civil even 300+ posts in.” An interesting post. [...]
I was born and raised Christian. Then in first grade I asked my teacher why God would make Adam and Eve then turn them into apes and back into people again. You would have thought the wrath of God was upon me! Finally when I quit church school in the fifth grade, the school director came to our house telling my mother she was failing her job as a parent by not forcing me to go to church. I finally stepped in and gave this speech. “Who died and made you Christ. He is the chosen one who’s job it is to judge, not yours! I don’t need to go to church to be close to God. He is here inside me at all times.” He came back saying that God is only in the alter on Sundays. I retorted, “Yeah? Well where is he on Saturdays or Weekdays? I believe God is with us at all times, everywhere we go. I don’t need a wooded building full of wooden bench to talk to him. After all I was made in his image. He is a part of me, and I of him.” The director left in a huff.
Since then I tried several churches. As a teenager I was molested and nearly raped by a minister. I joined a Southern Church for awhile just to quit becuace of their bigotry. Speak of secretcy, why does the Vatican have 15 miles worth of library guarded from the public which includes the original books of the bible before kings had a chance to rewrite them for their own political control. Are they so afraid that the truth would change world religion? These are just a few reson why I am no longer a Christian. I believe in Christ, but I believe Christianity died along with him
Well, I can say this, at least for you there is the basis for the beginning of a serious discussion concerning Christianity. I agree that you may worship the Lord Jesus Christ at any time and anywhere, you do not need a building to fellowship with God. However, I will say that fellowship with other believers certainly makes the Christian walk more fruitful.
“Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another:and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. Hebrews 10:24
Please understand that the assembling or ourselves together is of the utmost importance. I understand that there are some wicked churches that promote the most vile and reprehensiblely worldly doctrines, which are not after the manner of Jesus Christ. I promise you there is a church out there just for you, one in which the people are friendly and love you. I have been to a few churches in which I felt very out of place, so I can relate, but church attendance is important for spritual growth.
Why can’t I get in on a discussion like this and not have to worry about most of the posters having history degrees or bible scholars? I used to be a christian, but after attending a college religion course, figured out that “Church of Christ” were not the only ones in the world who thought we were “right” and going to heaven. I began to question so many things and after a while, my religion just didn’t add up to me. I stopped attending, but for years have had this gnawing inside me. I want to believe so strongly that there is a God and Jesus died for my sins, however I just can’t get it concreted in my head. I’ve had rough times in my life to be sure, and I’ve asked God for help. Sometimes I got the answer I wanted, other times, not at all. Does this mean God is saying NO to me? Or was it just the natural turn of events no matter if I was praying or not? Now, I’m in a relationship that is against Gods word. I have been for almost 14 years now, and my health has deteriorated due to this war going on inside of me. I love this person with all my heart , but I know it’s not right. Before I met her, I had asked God for YEARS to send me a husband. Not once, was ANYONE presented to me that could’ve fit that role. NOT ONCE! I had been a christian up to then. I had been faithful and had tried to live a decent life. I felt God didn’t exist or more to the point, I didn’t exist to God. I gave up. I was 28 years old, and lonely. So now I live everyday with questions in my head that can’t be answered. I live my life questioning whether God exists because of the course of my life, the tragedies of the world, and the fact that he just doesn’t communicate with us anymore. It’s been over 2000 years now. That’s a long time for man. Why hasn’t he sent us a sign, or given us updated information that we don’t have to translate? Why has our generation been left to chance?
Kay, I understand your desire to believe. It’s a comforting thought that we have someone looking out just for us and that we and our loved ones will never really die. But all your reasoning against the existence of god makes sense. Maybe it’s hard to accept what you have realized is the truth because you just want so badly to believe. I know I have sometimes half-wished that I had continued to believe the lie because it was just easier that way. But I also realize I am a better, kinder, more tolerant person now, and I don’t have to try to rationalize crazy beliefs anymore.
I’m glad you found someone to love. Be happy about that. I know it’s hard to overcome prejudices that were taught at a young age and that are still prevalent in our society, but love is hard to find so appreciate it and don’t worry so much about what society says is “right” or “wrong.” What do they know about it anyway? No more than you or I do.
Sara & James Allen,
I admire your patience with all of the various responses you have been receiving, especially from those concerned Christians who are telling you things that you already know.
And i dont ever recall seing any scripture verses stating that Christians will have the ability to read a person’s heart and mind (not to be confused with ‘discernment’) so that they can point out to you that you “werent really a christian” or that you “simply had a bad experience” or that you were “deriving your conclusions from the behavior of so-called Chrisitans”. During my time as a Christian, i did make such pronouncements about other people’s “falling away”, disillusionment, de-conversions, etc but they only got in the way of really trying to understand what these people had experienced and how they thought through the idea of Christian faith. Instead, these judgements served to protect me from thinking through my own doubts and from facing my fears. If anyone wishes to question me about the authenticity of my own faith experience, I’ll be more than glad to respond.
btw, i am no longer a christian, not because of some one-time “bad experience” or of the misleading behavior of so-called christians or from failing to seek a “relationship with christ”. There were a number of issues and realizations involved about which i am willing to expound upon request.
Kay, understand that you alone are responsible for the life you live. Only you will give an account for how you spent your life. There have been many posts from people that seek to destroy every ounce of faith that God has given you. None of these people have anything of value to offer you in place of God, only eventual death.
Ask yourself what are the motives for those who are posting these statements. Many non-believers say that they wish to enlighten you, and that once enlightened you can “really begin to live a full life”. Well, what then, you will still die someday. “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” Hebrews 9:27
Those that would seek to destroy a persons’ faith in God only offer death and destruction, and an eternity in Hell.
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thearat: Matthew 7:13
Because strait is the gate and nattow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14
I am not trying to distract you with empty philosophy as they would, I am come to tell you of the one who can truly offer you life.
Although the world offers death, Jesus offers life. “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” John 10:10
Ask yourself, why are these non-believers so adamant about convincing us that God is not real, why do they wish to discredit the Bible. I cannot offer all of the possible answers, but I will say that I love you, Jesus loves you and I am sincerely trying to offer you hope, and life through Jesus Christ. My motive is not to offer you dull and empty philosophy after the tradition of men, but rather new life and that more abundantly.
The correct spelling in Matthew 7:14 is narrow, sorry, I don’t look at the screen or the keyboard, just the text I am copying. No such word as nattow.
Thank you Joel
Joel, I completely agree with your post. I also passed those judgements on others for the same reason- to protect myself from my own doubts and fears. That’s the problem with believing something irrational- you have to constantly lie to yourself in order to protect that belief, and you have to refuse to think about certain things. Once I allowed myself to really think about it though, it was like a dam broke and all the doubts came pouring out and washed away all the lies (sappy, I know, but it’s a good analogy). Now I feel like I am finally myself again. I feel like I was involved in a cult for all those years, and like most people who escape from a cult, I’m kind of angry about it. I try to remember that these people are just trying to protect themselves from their own doubts and fears the way I used to, but sometimes I just want to scream because I know what they are doing to themselves and the people around them. Does that make sense?
Stephen, all you have to offer Kay is condemnation and threats. The Bible is basically a collection of fables about a vengeful, spiteful “god” who hates everyone except a select few who adhere to a ridiculous non-sensical immoral code of conduct. Your god says Kay should be stoned. And don’t get into that nonsense about “oh, that’s the old testament, it doesn’t count,” because I’m very good at scripture wars. I had plenty of practice. What I, and many others, would offer Kay is tolerance and acceptance. She is free to love whoever she wishes. She has done nothing wrong. The only code she has broken is an outdated law written by a bunch of bigots thousands of years ago. You, Stephen, are buying into a book of mythology and asking others to do the same thing. That book is used as an excuse to mistreat other human beings, and in my view it is a work of 99% evil. It represents some of the worst moral reasoning in the history of mankind and Kay would be wiser and happier to reject it, as would you.
Oh, and everyone will die, Stephen, even you. The only difference is that some of us will live full, moral lives, and some of us will waste our lives judging and condemning others and worshiping a god that does not exist.
As an aside, I concede the point that there MAY be some sort of after life or whatever, but I doubt it. And if there is, it is certainly not the “heaven” of the Bible. The Christian idea of “god” has been disproven. Unless of course you have an answer for the Problem of Evil, which is that if there were an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good god, s/he would not permit evil to exist in the world. If there is a god, she/he/it is either not all-powerful or not good. Think about that for a minute.
Kay,
I don’t condemn you, nor do I judge you, I pray to God that I never would. I have no right to judge you for your sin, only God does. I will however, say that the Bible DOES condemn all unrepentant/unsaved sinners to an eternity in Hell. I stand on the authority of the Word of God in that aspect, I say yes the Bible does condemn those who reject Jesus to an eternity in Hell. I merely seek to show others the way to life eternal in Heaven, through Jesus Christ.
I do not take the position that the Old Testament is irrelevant, nor the New Testament, the prevailing issue of sin is dealt with throughout the Bible. It is sin that separates us from God.
The last post stated that the Christian idea of God has been disproven, she knows that this is no more true than to say that you cannot prove that you exist. Tell me who and when was the existence of God disproven?
The underlying truth of this discussion is that you will, I will, she will, all will someday die. I merely ask, are you sure if you die today, Heaven would be your eternal home, there is a way you can know.
“And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.” I John 5:11
“He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life:” I John 5:12
“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” I John 5:13
Verse 13 says that “ye may know that ye have eternal life”.
I do not offer condemnation, rather Jesus offers life, not just life in Heaven but a full life here on earth. Those of this world offer you eventual death with no hope, they do err in their hearts.
“They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.” I John 4:5
“We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.” I John 4:6
I keep seeing people asking for proof. while there is no way for a person to prove that God exists, I did read a good book on archeological evidence and proof for biblical events. Things like the trek of the patriarchs and the flood and so on. I know this is not proof of a God, but thought some might be interested in evidence that Christianity is in fact based on historical fact.
and I didn’t leave the title in the last post. what a moron. It’s “The Bible as History” by Werner Keller.
also, the “Da Vinci Hoax” gives a good history of Christianity’s formation.
I actually did explain why the Christian god is not possible. Re-read the post. Or read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil.
It does not appear that anyone has successfully answered this argument against the existence of an all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolent being.
And, Stephen, people of other religions would urge you to accept THEIR plan for getting into “heaven.” You have no more proof of your ideas than they do, so as I said before, just to be safe you’d better accept all those other gods, too.
And I don’t see any “God” here condemning Kay, just you.
Sara,
I will read what you have to say in your post, but I am not interested in reading a website. I am interested in intellectual discussion, not websites. I read those at my own will, please copy and paste as a new post your proof for the non-existence of God otherwise I would have to search through 400 some odd posts to find yours. I am interested in what position you take on such a topic. I heard many say that God does not exist, but I have seen no proof. I have even admitted that I cannot prove to you that God exists, but I have shown you how He can prove it to you.
Stephen, if you don’t want to read the website, then don’t. I posted the link to save myself time, because I do not have time to fully explain the “problem of evil” to you, which I mentioned as that proof you were asking about.
Here’s what I wrote:
The Christian idea of “god†has been disproven. Unless of course you have an answer for the Problem of Evil, which is that if there were an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good god, s/he would not permit evil to exist in the world. If there is a god, she/he/it is either not all-powerful or not good.
Here’s what you responded in your next post:
The last post stated that the Christian idea of God has been disproven, she knows that this is no more true than to say that you cannot prove that you exist. Tell me who and when was the existence of God disproven?
Obviously, you must have read my “intellectual discussion” of the topic since you replied to it, so I don’t know why you are acting like you have no idea what I’m talking about. I thought maybe you wanted to read a more in-depth discussion of the topic, so I posted a link to such a discussion. What I wrote is the general idea. What do you not understand about it? Basically an all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent god would have the desire and ability to prevent evil. Since evil exists, there can be no such being. Logically, the Christian god is impossible, it’s a contradiction.
I can sum it all up in this phrase “free will”. Evil does exist in this world but not because of God. God gave us a choice in the Garden of Eden, we chose evil. Notice that God said not to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There would be no evil in humanity without having sinned against God.
I asked you to copy and paste because I assumed there had been a post earlier in which you had disproved the existence of God. You have in no way disproven God. We know that evil exists, but that does in no way disprove God. You merely prove the existence of evil, not the non-existence of God. The Bible repeatedly mentions the existence of God and evil.
In what way does the existence of evil disprove God. You are merely expressing that if God existed he probably would not allow evil or if God existed he would not allow evil. To make such an assumption you would need to know God personnally in order to make such a prediction about His character. Since you do not know God how can you say that His existence and the existence of evil are a contradiction, without first knowing His charater?
Why should the existence of evil suggest the non-existence of God. It appears as though you are suggesting a negative correlation between the presence of evil and the presumed non-existence of God. In other words the more evil, the less proof of God. Anyone schooled in the sciences knows that correlation is not causation. I am not schooled in the sciences and do not suggest to be any measure of an authority on the subject but, I know that correlation is not causation. The mere existence of evil does not prove the non-existence of God.
I didn’t say it disproves the possible existence of a god, it just disproves the idea of an all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent god. If there were a god who was good and caring, that being would not allow bad things to happen to those it cared about if there was something it could do about it. To allow those things would be immoral, therefore god would not be good or benevolent. If god wants to stop it but can’t, then god is not all-powerful. The Christian god is supposedly all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent. That idea of god is inconsistent with reality, because an all-powerful, benevolent being could and would prevent evil.
Your free will argument is so predictable, and so easily refuted. The following is from Wikipedia, but if you can’t read it, then skip it and I’ll rephrase.
“some critics note that if a god simply cannot create people that are both entirely good and enjoy free will, then it cannot be considered all-powerful.”
An all-powerful god could create anything it wanted to. A good god would want to create a perfect world, where people are good and have free will and evil does not exist. The world is not perfect, therefore either god couldn’t create a perfect world, and is therefore not all-powerful, or god didn’t care about it’s creation, and therefore is not good or benevolent.
It is possible that there is an all-powerful being, but that being could not be benevolent due to the fact that it allows evil to exist. So I am making a judgement about god’s character. If there is an all-powerful god, that being is of low moral character.
You presumably base your estimation of God’s character on a limited understanding of character. Consider this, if you somehow had the ability to force your child to love you and not rebel against you would you? In other words if you force your child to love you and do not give your child the ability not to love you, than by definition he does not in fact love you, he simply obeys you. If God had not given us the ability to choose we would not by definition love God, love must be of free will, not forced. Basically if God had not given us the ability to sin and rebel against Him, we would merely be zombies forced to love and obey God. Therefore, exists free will.
Rather, God has given us a free will and therefore some of us love God and some hate God. There is the distinction, you must understand that my answer is predictable because it is true. Those of us the love God do so because He first loved us and gave us that ability, conversely those that hate God do so because He has given them that ability. Just as you give your child the ability to love or not love you, in fact you cannot force your child to love you, you can only force him to obey, that is not love, that is forced submission.
Furthermore, since God created everything that exists He has the ability to do anything He wished to do except lie, “In hope of eternal life, which God, cannot lie, promised before the world began” Titus 1:2 , change “For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed”Malachi 3:6, and God cannot let anyone into heaven without trusting Jesus as savior “For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16
Therefore, God gave man free will to sin or not to sin and since man sinned God (because He does cannot lie, change or allow anyone into heaven without accepting Jesus as savior) had to allow man to die and evil to enter the world. Yes, evil exists and bad things happen, but the Bible teaches that God cannot llie, He said that ” But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt shurely die.”Genesis 2:17 God said that man would die and die we have and will, God because He is Holy and righteous must uphold His word.
By evil, I do not mean that people don’t love “God.” I mean that people do evil to eachother. I may not be able to force my child to love me, but you can be sure I would never allow any harm to come to either of my children if I had the ability to prevent it, because I love my children. If there were a god who loved humanity and had the ability to prevent harm from befalling any of us, that being certainly would not hesitate to do so. Reality shows us this is not the case.
An all-powerful being could by definition do anything it wanted to do, including create a world with free will and without evil.
this is a great conversation between you two– and this has become a place for me to come and share some thoughts— and by the way i don’t use spell check– i have a dictionary.
one of the things that we can’t escape is the abundance of gods. the christian god, the muslim god, hindus, shinto, taoism, and the tribal religions of africa. there are about twenty-two thousand separate christian groups around the world. the total christian following world wide is around two billion. this means that four billion people on this planet do not believe in the christian god. how does john 3:16 figure into this? “for god so loved the world…..whosoever believeth in him…………” ? that’s a heck of alot of people going to hell.
i am a secular humanist and a scientific pantheist. this means i view humans as the greatest power in our lives and in the lives of those we love. this also means that nature is the real spiritual driving force and it cannot be easily explained. we have been personifying nature with our gods for centuries because they answered important questions. good and evil therefore are man made concepts and do not exist in nature. water in the form of rain can grow crops and feed millions, it can also produce a torrent that can wash out cities and kill thousands. this is not evil, it’s just the way things are.
consider the plight of hyenas– they hunt in packs because no one individual could make the kill. they run down a zebra, bring it down, and start to devour it alive……..matt 10:29-31 “are not five sparrows sold for a penny, and not one of them is forgotten before god”. how ’bout the zebra man? he’s worth a couple of bucks easy! why does a loving god find it necessary to base the sustaining of life on killing and devouring?
and if this extends to free will, does it not also extend to choice of belief system? i do not hate god. it has been said that god does not exist— this is wrong. it exists in the minds and hearts of billions. it is a concept– just as love, propriety, and justice are. just becuse i do not believe in god, does not mean that i don’t believe in good. don’t think i discount you because many theists i have met have been forgiving altruists. i want to extend you that respect. you credit god? isn’t the fruitfullness and fullfillment you experience a result of you gathering together with people of like mind?
please don’t stray from the beneficial personal philosophy— but don’t use that book to try to explain how the universe was put together or the origin of life. the ironic thing is you can use that bible to prove everything your saying; and everything i’m saying. how can a perfect being be so illogical that we must say: “god works in strange and mysterious ways”? something so important cannot be left to belief alone.
in my view it is possible that a being, a force, a race, or something we can’t understand yet…..came to this world billions of years ago….and put into motion a set of parameters that evolved over time.
damn, missed the because!
this statement is from the LiveScience.com website article Survival of the Fetus: Why Males Have it So Rough: ‘When times are tough, women tend naturally to abort a higher percentage of male fetuses. Researchers call it culling, but they don’t know why it occurs.’
god’s benevolence? you decide.
the above article can be found at http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060124_male_fetus.html
[...] Joel Hernandez has pointed me towards an interesting article on livescience.com. It says: [...]
Lane, your post is very interesting and made me think about some things. There was one statement that I wasn’t sure about however:
“please don’t stray from the beneficial personal philosophy”
Surely you realize that religion isn’t always beneficial to the believer or those around them. At best it is a harmless lie, but it can also be used to make oneself feel guilty about very normal human behavior, and as an excuse for war, terrorism, murder, and just generally treating others badly. I mean look at Stephen. He keeps posting about how all the rest of us here who don’t think like him are going to be tormented forever when we die. That’s a horrible, hateful thing to say to someone, especially since some people would be gullible enough to believe him. My point is that in many cases, religion is anything but beneficial. Like James said in the OP, it divides people and creates an us versus them mentality.
I agree with this comment:
“one of the things that we can’t escape is the abundance of gods”
That is one of the things that contributed to my de-conversion. The people who believe in those gods are just as convinced as Christians are. I had to ask myself why I would dismiss those gods and put my faith in a belief system that was not any different. I realized I was buying into superstition the same way people of those other religions were.
Sara,
You said that there cannot exist free will and evil simultaneously. However, if this were true then there would not truly exist free will. Adam chose to partake of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam (mankind) chose to have the knowledge of good and evil. Because God set the price for sin and since man sinned God had no choice but to uphold His word.
Yes, evil exists, but it exists because Adam chose to allow it into the world. Once here God had no choice but to allow the fruit of man’s choice to ripen, hence evil. Evil would not exists without sin.
Therefore, we see that (1) evil exists because of sin, (2) sin exists because of choice, (3) choice (free will) exists because God allows it. Although God had to uphold His word, He made a plan to overcome the evil of this world. Remember that the penalty for sin was death, but, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoseoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” John 3:16
Sara, you said in your most recent post that “That’s a horrible, hateful thing to say to someone, especially since some people would be gullible enough to believe him. ” and “At best it is a harmless lie, but it can also be used to make oneself feel guilty about very normal human behavior, and as an excuse for war, terrorism, murder, and just generally treating others badly.”
Well, yes I am telling you that all those that do not accept Jesus will burn in Hell for all eternity. “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:15
To say that all who reject Jesus will spend an eternity in Hell is a mighty powerful statement, but this I must declare, because it is true. “Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?” Galatians 4:16
sorry, sara. i was just trying to give some people the benefit of the doubt, being civil, and wanting to avoid stereotypes.
you get no argument from me that religion has done more harm than good. let’s start with wars for example. with the sudan, the government in khartoum is muslim, the people in darfur are christian. this is genocide going on there. world war one had it’s own religious overtones when the turks, who were muslim, massacred one millon armenians, who were christian. world war two of course, is consistent with this model. i have a documentary that shows ladies sitting in a berlin movie theater before the war. they have crosses on their breasts, and in the middle of the cross is a swastika. himmler modeled the ss after the jesuit order. in japan they fought for their emperor who was devine. and now baby….we got the sunnis and the shia.
stephen, john 3:16 means that the great bulk of people, who are living today, and have lived on this world, are in hell.
charles tempelton:
“the reader may be suprised to learn that the concept of endless torment is not a common theme in the old testament. the word hell is used to translate the hebrew word sheol, which means simply “the place of the dead”.”
indeed, this is not the only place in the bible with translation problems:
“the hebrew word ha-adam (adam)… is a generic term for humankind.” - u.s. news and world report aug 10, 1998
as long as we are talking about adam and eve, don’t you think the treatment of women in the bible is out of step with modern times?
timothy 1:11-14: “let the woman learn in silence with all subjection….but i suffer not a woman to teach or to usurp athority over men……adam was not deceived, but the woman being decevied was in the transgression.”– that was mr. apostle paul speaking.
corinthians 14:35 “…… let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”– so, what’s wrong with joyce meyer? and as long as we are being judgemental:
galatians 4:28 “there is neither jew nor greek…..male nor female: all are one in jesus christ.”– contradictory. per john 3:16; i thought i’d have to believe. need more scripture, buddy? i got more! this one is one of my fay-vor-ites. it takes place during the war with the midianites:
numbers 31:17-18: “now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him……but all the women children that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”– gee, thanks moses!
matt 10:34: “think not that i have come to send peace on earth: i came not to send peace, but a sword.”
wow man, “the fruit of man’s choice to ripen”… that’s some major waxing! you see, i watch and listen to religious programs all the time… mostly for a good laugh. but i lament at how christians of all stripes speak in the context of superstition, myth, and folk tales.
p.s. i’d like to know everybody’s philosophical path…agnostic, catholic, whatever…….
Stephen,
Do you realize that ‘free will’ is simply rolling the dice? Either we do what we are programmed to do or quantum mechanics (random, unpredictable events) determine what we do. There is no mystery here. So what you are saying is that God rolls the dice in us and lets us be good or evil at random. Doesn’t sound like a goog god to me.
Also, I agree with Sara’s point. Babies dying of disease is not always caused by free will. Nature itself (God’s pure creation according to you) does evil things.
Stephen, I haven’t even read your entire post, but where did I say free will and evil couldn’t exist simultaneously? What I said was that if there were and all-powerful god, that being could create a world where evil and free will did not have to coexist. Please read more carefully.
Stephen, you wrote:
“Well, yes I am telling you that all those that do not accept Jesus will burn in Hell for all eternity. “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.†Revelation 20:15
To say that all who reject Jesus will spend an eternity in Hell is a mighty powerful statement, but this I must declare, because it is true. “Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?†Galatians 4:16″
Just wanted to point out that although you may believe that to be true, not everyone agrees with you. Something is not true just because you or some old book say so.
Also, if god supposedly made Adam, then he is responsible for creating an imperfect creation. If god is all-knowing, then he must have known that Adam would be imperfect and would “sin.” Why then would a loving creator not create a perfect creation, as an all-powerful creator would have the ability to do? So which is it, Stephen? Did your god not know humanity would turn away? Or did he not care? Or was he incapable of making anything better? You can not logically claim that there is an all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolent creator, because such a creator would have made a perfect creation rather than a flawed one.
Since you asked, Lane, I consider myself an atheist.
Lane, I am an Agnostic. But, like Richard Dawkins says, I am agnostic about God the same way I am agnostic about pixies and leprechauns.
Sara,
I agree that mere belief does not prove truth. I know that the Bible is true, however my beliefs are irrelevant in regards to proving said truth to you. In order to settle an issue, we must both agree to an absolute standard of truth, for me it is the Bible, you have not mentioned to me what you consider to be an absolute standard of truth. I digress.
In regard to the statement that “You can not logically claim that there is an all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolent creator, because such a creator would have made a perfect creation rather than a flawed one.” I have previously stated that God created Adam and gave to him free will. God did not create Adam sinful, Adam became sinful as a result of his choice to sin against God.
Who would you consider to be the most evil being that has ever been created? Most certainly we would all agree Lucifer is and was the most evil being that has ever been created. Lucifer was in the garden and tempted Eve to commit the same sin that he created, the sin of pride and rebellion (being as gods). Lucifer lied to Eve and told her “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:5 This is the same sin that Lucifer commited “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the side of the north:” Isaiah 14:13
Since Lucifer is the most evil being that has ever been created, perhaps you might suggest that God created him as an imperfect being. It is however through choice that evil now exists, both in the case of man and Lucifer. “Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire., Ezekiel 28:14, “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.” Ezekiel 28:15
We see then that Lucifer was perfect from the day he was created until iniquity was found in him, which obviously occured because he chose to rebel against God.
Since God is all knowing, all powerful and the benevolent creator, we thus understand that God must have known what would happen and yet chose to create Lucifer, Adam and the remaninder of the creation. Yes, I say that God did have foreknowledge that His creation would rebel against Him in foolish pride. However, He chose to create our everything irregardless. I don’t know why God would demonstrate such love toward us by creating us irregardless of our rebellion, but I am eternally grateful that He did.
Stephen,
Sara’s logic is sound. God is either not omniscient, not good, or not omnipotent, or he does not exist. Free will does not explain evil, because as I said, it is just a way of saying that God rolled the dice and allowed us to sin at random. Everyone sins, so God obviously knew we would, if he exists. If he created free will, he indirectly created evil, there is no way around it.
Stephen, why did your god not create Adam in such a way that he would not sin? Marty is right, if there is a “creator,” then that creator created evil. No loving “god” would do that. You can try to dance around this contradiction all you want, but that won’t make it go away. Like Marty said, “God is either not omniscient, not good, or not omnipotent, or he does not exist.”
And I don’t believe in absolute truth. I believe in what I can observe; whatever is logical to believe. Therefore, what I believe is subject to change based on new information. I don’t try to shape the information into something that will fit into an “absolute truth.” That’s the difference between you and I. You start with the assumption that your belief system is true and then accept or reject new information based on how well it fits with what you already believe. I use the information I recieve to shape my beliefs, not the other way around.
hey, stephen…. why don’t you talk to me?……..weren’t my last posts relevant?………you are a pip…..you want to get emotional with that book….and i want to get analytical with that book……i could quote scripture all day. i could quote real disturbing things in that — bibb-le– that you probably don’t know about…..ya, really make me chuckle stephen, you really do.
let’s try this on for size: “who would you consider to be the most evil being that has ever been created?”…….let’s see….hitler comes to mind….uh,….how about genghis khan?….or maybe pol pot? if it was lucifer…he never looked so good in millitary regailia…how about joltin’ joe stalin?…..oh yea, i forgot…..he was an atheist..
and by the way, we are….. so unworthy…..such sinners….undeserving…..scum….then why were we given life?…god, you theists are on a guilt trip…..religion gives humans too little credit my friend….i’d like to see you hold a conversation on this subject without quoting from that bible….
sara, what we are dealing with here is somthing called cognitive dissonance. this means we will reject any information that conflicts with an emotional position we hold. this is psychologically true for all of us. we all fear death and the unknown.
you also bring up a very good point….you believe what you can observe…and that is the problem…we are so limited by our perspectives of the universe around us….take neutrinos for example….neutrinos are sub-atomic particals that are given off by nuclear fusion…our sun gives them off….these particals react very weakly with normal matter…trillions of them right now are going through both of us…and every piece of matter around us…..they go through this planet….and continue at the speed of light….scientists estimate because they can pass through matter almost unhindered….it would take a light year thick piece of lead to stop just some of them……we can’t see um, but they are there!
i remember doing an experiment in school….we compared the earth to a basketball…….the earth is rounder than a basketball mathematically………but, go outside……pretty flat right?…….take that basketball, and now it is the sun in our sky…….the earth would be the size of a small pea next to that……..take that basketball, and now it is the star beltegeuse……this is a red giant star in the constellation orion……if it were a basketball…..our sun would be a grain of sand next to it….
we didn’t even know horse’s hoofs left the ground when they ran……until the advent of motion picture film.
lightning starts on the ground…not in the sky…electricity flows from negative to positive….the ground always has a positive charge….
this is not the age of man or mammals……as steven j gould once said……this is the age of bacteria…..there are more individual e-coli bacteria living in your digestive tract…..then there have been people living on this earth…..
our blood has the same salt content as seawater………
when you take feathers and reptile scales…….and break them down into their chemical components…….they are identical….
try as we might… there are somethings we can’t wrap our minds around…….one of the things i rellish is the wonder in all this……..i feel sorry for some theists….they’ve got it all figured out already……
ummmmm——that’s positve to negative duh,
sorry real tired—positive
particle
Lane, not just want I can personally observe, but also what ever else is logical to believe.
I’ve heard the term cognitive dissonance before back in college psyc, but didn’t think of it here. Thanks for giving a name to the situation. You’re right, it does apply here.
I don’t know why Stephen only wants to argue with me, and isn’t talking much to anyone else. That’s a good question.
And of course you’re tired! Geez, I hope you are in a different time zone!
Lane Arnold,
I don’t have time to answer the posts of several people at one time concerning mulitple topics, I am currently having a discussion with Sara concerning the existence of evil. Once we have reached an understanding or an impasse, I will discuss one topic at a time concerning the Bible, if you are interested be thinking of one Bible topic to discuss. Additionally, I would not dream of holding a conversation on the subject without the Bible, for you see, the Bible is the substance of the entire discussion. I would be hopelessly lost without the Bible, I freely admit this.
Sara,
I will expain as clearly as I know how, the existence of evil. God created Adam, God gave to Adam free will, Adam sinned, evil now reigns in our world. God never spun a wheel and thought, Hmmm, I wonder if Adam will sin, no, God foreknew that Adam would sin but chose to create him anyway, because of His love for mankind, even before He created mankind.
Furthermore, since you don’t have a standard for absolute truth you may fall for any strange doctrine, whether it be atheism, secular humanism, existentialism or any host of other false teachings.
“Remember them that have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.” Hebrews 13:7 ” Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever.” Hebrews 13:8 “Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. Gebrews 13:9
I’d like to contribute to the conversation because I am from a different background than those of you here. I was raised with some influence from Buddhism. Even though I’ve never believed in Buddhism or practiced it, I do not dislike it, the reason is because it only tries to help people with some life philosophy, it never tries to control people like the way other religions do (such as Christianity or Catholics). The people in the culture where I grew up hate the Catholics. The Catholics are the minority of the population, rooted from the help of the Missionaries and were converted by them. People hate the Catholics because the Catholics always say theirs is the only “right†religion. The concept of God is not relevant to Buddhists, the focus is on the Buddha’s teachings on how to live a moral life.
Needless to say I’ve never had any respect for the mumbo-jumbo bible talk such as those by Stephen, it annoys me to death to hear him talk.
I was agnostic for a long time until lately I realize that I definitely do not believe there is a God. I agree we can think of God as a “conceptâ€, not a “real†existing Creator the way the Christians believe and have “relationship†with (holy craps!).
It always amazes me to see many people believe literally in the bible (like Stephen). Do they have a brain? Many of them do have high education and knowledge in some field of study, so they are not stupid, but when it comes to spiritual mater, they must be very weak-minded, they must rely on something, or lean on something, or they would feel lost. It’s true the very first reason people believe in a religion is fear of the unknown and death. The next reason is: people want to be “conformistsâ€, they do what other people around them do. Unfortunately they don’t know the harm of their conforming action: their children are brainwashed into believing the fallacy of the Virgin Mary and the Savior Jesus since the kids were toddlers, and people’s brain become pretty much fixed after teenage. Social contact/activity is another important reason that many people belong to a church or an organized religion. I wish the atheists can do something about this issue since it is what common people need.
I was engaged in some light debates on another website about politics and religion. I gave up talking because many of them are religious freaks who want to use religion to control politics, it’s a nasty situation. I consider myself a scientist (I design software) so I believe in proof, and I do not have blind faith in anything. Many people claim they are scientists, and they say they go to church and believe in the bible, I think they just have a job in a science field, they do not see science as the truth of what is proven and qualified to be believed in, and what is not.
My boss, an intelligent Harvard-educated and an atheist, and people like James Allen, Sara, Marty, Gnostic, Lane, … help reinforce my belief of “there is no Godâ€, thanks folks.
One more thing, I worry about some of my nephews and nieces who are from my relatives who marry the Catholics, these kids are forced to be converted to Catholics and are brainwashed already, I wonder what I should do to “save†them from being “saved�
I don’t know that there is anything you can do to save them. They have to make up their own minds. The best you can do is just talk to them and maybe give them another viewpoint to think about.
Well, Stephen, you said you wanted to talk until we reached an impasse, and so we have. I don’t know what else I can say to you. You have made up your mind without considering the evidence for both sides of the issue. I suppose you have the right to make that choice, just as I have the right to make a different choice. There’s really nothing else to say about it.
Tunik, it’s nice to hear a slightly different perspective. Here in Arkansas we are immersed in fundamental christianity. It’s the norm. James and I are in a small minority. Thanks for reminding me that there are places where things aren’t so bad. I’m sorry to say I agree with James about your relatives. There isn’t much you can do.
Sara,
We have both made the choice, for you it has been atheism, for me Jesus Christ. ” And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15
http://tulsa.humanists.net/NoGodHarris.htm
An excellent essay.
ha, ha! this is great! thank you father stephen—why can’t you address multiple topics? look at my posts…haven’t i tried to talk to more than one person at a time?……. are you telling me that a man of god like you