This post on Hell’s Handmaiden got me to thinking. I used to be a Christian, at least, I went to a christian church most Sundays. I always felt like I stood out. I felt like people were unaccepting of me because I didn’t “believe enough.” Although it could have been that they just didn’t like me. There were a lot of other differences between us besides just that. But I still went most every Sunday. So the question is, why don’t I go anymore? I thought I’d outline my reasons (while trying to plagiarize Hell’s Handmaiden as little as possible).
- One of my main problems was the idea of the inerrancy of the Bible. This is a book whose earliest parts were supposedly written almost 2000 years ago, and then copied by hand for over a thousand years. And that is just the New Testament. The Old Testament is supposed to be much older than that. People in church would say “God wouldn’t allow his word to be altered” or, my favorite, “the Bible is inerrant because the Bible says it is inerrant.” That’s air-tight logic right there. Obviously, God’s word does get distorted all the time. Even a word for word translation is going to lost it’s shades of meaning. And that doesn’t even take into account the fact that there are dozens of translations of the Bible just into English. Which one is correct? They can’t all be right.
- The misogynistic viewpoint of the Bible and the church. As Serendipity says in Dogma: “Women are painted as bigger antagonists than the Egyptians and Romans combined. It stinks.” From the Garden of Eden to Abraham and Sarah and Hagar to Samson and Delilah to David and Bathsheba. It’s a wonder it wasn’t Mary Magdalene who betrayed Jesus instead of Judas. And that is just the characters. Read the rules laid down on everyday women in the Old Testament sometime. It makes the way the Taliban treat women seem tame. This page skims the surface of the problem.
- The belief that no matter how bad you are, all you have to do is accept Jesus and all is forgiven. And if you don’t love little baby Jesus with all your heart, God gives you the big Fuck Off. Consider these two people. Aboriginal kid living in the rain forest never meets anyone outside his village. He lives a decent life, never lies, cheats, or steals. He dies protecting his village against some predator. But he never even hears about the Bible. Serial Rapist/Murderer, as he is sitting on the electric chair accepts Jesus. Which one deserves to get tormented by eternal hellfire? I can’t accept any ethical system that values the latter over the former. And it is a huge question. Most of the world outside of the West was unaware of Christianity up until the last few hundred years. Even today, the 2 biggest countries are China and India and I don’t think there are too many Christians over there. Are all those people automatically condemned to hell?
- As cool as zombies are, following one is not the smartest idea in the world. Sooner or later he is going to bite you. Of course the difference is that in the movies you would end up walking around brain dead trying to convert the living into more zombies too. Wait a minute…
- Also the idea that believing in Zombies, Ghosts, Angels, Demons, Giants, and Witches isn’t weird.
- The idea that Christians are enlightened but Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Spiritualists, etc are all disillusioned. I’m sorry, what exactly is the difference. If you are going to follow a religion how do you tell which one is correct? None of them offer any more evidence than any other. What exactly is the difference between your facts and their myths?
- People like to claim that without religion we would have no morals. So why is it that nearly every major atrocity we have committed on one another was in the name of religion. The Jewish cleansing of Israel in the Old Testament, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, witch burnings, today’s Islamic terrorists….Coaches like to say that sports don’t build character, they reveal it. Well, the same thing applies to religion and morals.
- In my opinion, the singlest greatest human fault is this idea of “the others”. (And I’m not talking about Lost.) The idea that people outside of your group are somehow “less.” Whether it is decided on the basis of race, gender, sexual preference, geographic location, or anything really, we all seem to place a lot of faith in this idea that “we” are somehow better than “them”. It doesn’t really matter who them is. It doesn’t even really have anything to do with them. It is about you (and me). There is a peculiarly human need to feel superior to the rest of our species. And religion is the ultimate in the us vs. them mentality. “We are going to Heaven. The rest of you will be punished for eternity in Hell.” Makes it a lot easier to harm someone when your god is going to punish them after they die anyway. Maybe you should just go ahead and speed that up for him so he can get to his smiting in time to catch the game later.
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James Allen posted this entry on Tuesday, August 8th, 2006 at 3:56 pm.
Posted in the category Personal, religion
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I agree with you, however I do know there is a God. I believe that it is my own conception of what I call God but it still is. I have a hard time justifying that one religion is better or more right than any other, however, it is hard to say 99% of the world is wrong for believing there is a God.
I agree with you. I have always cringed whenever the believers have claimed the bible is the word of God. If there were a God would such an ambiguous, imprecise and inept method as human text be used to communicate his wishes? This goes for all the other so called holly bocks of other religions. Surly an omnipotent being could find a better way to communicate with his creation.
“…It is hard to say 99% of the world is wrong for believing there is a God.”
I think you have your numbers just a LEEETLE off, there, pal. Secular humanism, atheism, agnosticism, and other non-theistic mindsets are a LOT more prevalent than you might think, as we slide ever deeper into the Age of Reason.
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts.
According to http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html, about 16% of the world is non-religious and about half of those are genuine athiests. I thought the U.S. had a low percentage of athiests, but actually it’s around 6%, so it’s really only slightly less than the world average.
A large percentage of the population believes in UFO abductions and that Elvis is still alive, so I wouldn’t let majority rule on this one. In addition to the fact that the bible is absolutely riddled with blatant contradictions and inconsistencies (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html), there is absolutely no evidence supporting the existence of an all-powerful diety. The whole question of the existence of god cannot be observed, or verified or falsified according to any of our standard burdens of proof, so what reason is there to believe that god exists?
God was invented by man to console and placate him regarding matters of life, morality, and death, and supported by governments and tyrants alike to use religious motivations to help them keep their power and control over their societies.
Billy, I don’t put much stock in these “how can so many people be wrong” arguments. No matter how you slice it, an enormous number of people are, or have been, wrong. Step back from religion for a moment and think about science; and think about how many hundreds of millions– billions– of people throughout history have been utterly and thoroughly wrong about some basic bits of now common science. Its far more common for people to be wrong than for them to be right.
I think you are way off base. On a lot of your argument, especially since 2 of them are your equation that Jesus = Zombie.
This is an immature way of looking at an entire category of religions. It’s like saying you hate Subway because you don’t like meatball subs. Not all forms of christianity believe baptism is a cleanse all sins program. Like catholicism. Oh wait, is that the biggest form of christianity in the world?
And you say it’s wrong for a religion to denounce the activities of other religions. What? How can you preach “Thou shalt not kill”, and not denounce the killers? It sounds like you don’t like other christians who are immature themselves, not christianity.
This post only shows a lack of understanding in your own faith, and a lack of research in christianity itself.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5519239193881956619&q=carlin
“…It is hard to say 99% of the world is wrong for believing there is a God.â€
According to http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html about 8% don’t believe in a God. And then there are primal, traditional Chinese and Buddism religions which do not believe in a God and account for about 18% of the world population.
Frank Milton:
Your wonderful ability with the English language is, in itself, a proof of the inappropriateness of English to express specific ideas clearly (secretly, I’m hoping that you aren’t actually a native speaker).
UglyShirts:
You are right 99% isn’t correct. I’ve widely heard it stated that it is more like 95%-90% of the world (but, of course, I’m too lazy to track down any concrete research on this). Although, I believe that Agnosticism is generally included in that number - and probably makes up a large proportion (especially in the Western world). As for the “Age of Reason” - that is over (which is a pity, in my mind). If you do some study you will find that since the Millenium we have been living, increasingly, in what is being referred to as the “Age of Experience” - where individuals have their own personal version of the truth rather than an objective truth. It seems to be a generational change - and not for the better. Take a good look around at the world and you will see that it is true (at least, it is true, _for me_ ;-)).
I am a Christian, so take aim and fire away if you need to. I must admit the bible is extremely confusing. I am saddened by the amount of “splitting” that goes on with it - where people split out their favourite bit to love or vilify and run with that. I feel that is where the biggest issues with religion come about - where people grab the bits they like and ignore the rest (it’s a very “Age of Experience” thing to do, BTW). It’s why some Christians hate gays but for some reason have no problem eating lobster (even though the proscription on both is described within sentences of each other in the book of Leviticus). Worse, these points of view are taken without considering the core tenets that Jesus offerred as the “Great Commandment(s)”:
1. Love the Lord your God with all your mind, heart, soul and spirit. And,
2. Love your neighbour as yourself.
If you come anywhere near these then how can anyone fight a war? Or even really have an “us and them” mentality? Those commandments are an ideal - and they are awfully hard to live up to. They are the mission of a lifetime (or more).
As for those not reached by “Christians”, like your aboriginal boy, I honestly don’t know what happens with them. I’m pretty sure that the bible has something to say about it being in God’s hands (I can’t even think how to do a search for appropriate verse). Whether a murderer or someone “unreached” goes to Heaven or Hell is completely out of our hands and isn’t something we have the ability to judge in any useful sense. As for a murderer “finding God” on his deathbed (or in his “death-electric-chair”) well, who knows if it is real or not? I’m pretty confident that if he’s just taking a gamble because the thought of death scares the crap out of him then that won’t cut it with God. Finding God at a time like that would need to be the “most real” thing ever to happen in someones life - or it would be meaningless.
I will not try and tell anyone that Christianity is right! I believe it, but if you don’t there is nothing I can say that will make you change your mind.
I value you taking the time to explain why you are no longer a christian. I value open and honest debate. It is great that you’ve taken the time to actually think critically about what you believe and what you are told (I don’t think too many people do that). I encourage you to seek God in your own way - if you do, I’m sure he will give you what you need to know.
I don’t know what the outcome could possibly be but I wish you well, my friend.
There is no god. period. Accept it, and move on.
Everyone starts out an athiest. What religion most people profess is mainly a function of who got to them first, which is a pretty silly basis for a person’s entire world view, in my opinion. Had I been born in Iran, I would probably be a Muslim, if Israel, then a Jew, if India, then a Hindu. Those religions make no sense to me. Why, then, should I be a Christian because I happen to have been born in a mostly Christian nation? Afterall, Christianity makes no more sense than any other religion. I truly believe that if most people had the courage to consider their religious beliefs objectively, they would ultimately reject them. But most people will never do that because they are afraid of losing their payoff (cultural acceptance, comfort regarding death, a reason for their life, etc.). Of course, there are usually costs for religious belief, as well. Rational thought, tolerance for others, and honest discussion of truly important issues must usually be sacrificed. For me, there came a point where the cost was no longer worth the reward, and that’s why I’m no longer a Christian.
You make some good points about Christian hypocrisy and failings. However some of your points seem irrelevant. For example, the supposed mysogynism of Christianity may be repulsive to you, but that shouldn’t have any effect on whether you beleive of desbeleive the core claims of Christianity. That’s like saying you don’t beleive in evolution because its been used as justification for eugenics and racism.
More importantly, your claim that no religion “offer[s] any more evidence than any other” is also irrelevant. Christianity is a supernatural claim about the creation and meaning of life, not a naturalistic scientific theory. This idea of being “above” material evidence raises suspicions for some; since it seems convenient in this age where everything is subjected to double-blind controlled studies. However most world religions have been mystical and supernatural long before the modern scientific age; they have not all changed recently to escape study.
Conrad: I think if God were invented by man to placate and control the masses, descriptions of Him would make more immediate sense, and not include such details as the Chrisitan’s duty to obey God before human authority. Better explanations might be that God is real, or that he is a myth created naturally for a thousand different reasons over time, including greed, desire for control, desire for rebellion, and the need for inspiration.
You are welcome to your opinion, but don’t you think you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
If you don’t believe that the Bible is “inerrant”, that just means that you are not a fundamentalist. Most Christians aren’t. Your point about “the misogynistic viewpoint of the Bible” is really the same point. You don’t believe that every word in the Bible is “inerrant”. Got it.
But YOU are not an “Aboriginal kid living in the rain forest who never meets anyone outside his village”. You HAVE BEEN exposed to Christianity.
Isn’t it possible to practice Christianity in a way that recognizes that not every word in the Bible can be taken literally? Isn’t it possible to practice Christianity without having a “misogynistic viewpoint”? Isn’t it possible to practice Christianity yet believe that other religions can also be a path to God? Or must you reject Christianity entirely?
Lou:
If I am rejecting parts of the Bible is wrong and accepting other parts, how do I sort out which parts are which? You can either accept the Bible and follow every word of it or reject it. There are definitely some good things I have taken from the Bible. (Forgiveness being chief among them.) But when you begin throwing out parts of the Bible you stop believing in it and begin believing in yourself. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with that, but it doesn’t appeal to me any more than believing in the Bible. At least the people who are doing that are showing the ability to think for themselves.
k9:
You make some good points also. I think I blended together my problems with the Bible and my problems with the Church. (Which most Christians can tell you are often two very seperate things.) But it is like the parable of the fig tree. A tree will be known by its fruits. If Christianity were going to have a positive influence, it would have done so by now.
I can’t just dismiss lack of evidence. If I am going to believe in one thing despite a lack of evidence, I can believe anything I want.
I should note that I am not an Atheist. I consider myself Agnostic. Christianity could be true. I honestly don’t know. Of course, so could Islam, Hinduism or Lord of the Rings. Everything could be true for all I know. I don’t like to put blind faith into anything if I can help it. As themaiden noted above, it is far more common for people to be wrong than to be right. I’m just playing the averages.
Right on, man. I’m in agreement with all of your points.
If you would believe that a storm slamming into a rubble and after the storm we will see a building constructed by coincidence, then you will believe that the series in events that resulted in earth and life is impossible, while this is actually what happened because of God. Think of earth, a slight tilting would make the difference between summer and winter. If there was no god why doesn’t earth just tilt a bit more and the life on earth would be wiped off in no time? Answer, there is a god up there controlling everything, wake up!
okay me bein one of the people who grow up in church now im 19 and think its full u shit i mean i love god with all my heart but every “bad” thing i did was @ or with church. . . Got drunk @ my 1st retreat. . . smokes weed with my fav youth helper and my bestfriend lost her virginity to are “2nd youth paster. . . pretty fucked up i know then sunday the same people who were buyin me and my friends Vodka are gonna sit up there an tell me i need to ask god for forgiveness. . . “excuse me” but FUCK THAT!! church is probably ruined for me forever i know all churchs arent like that but still there will always be that thought in the back of my mind and i know alot of church that are like that. . . so i say the hell with church read the bible on ur own time im shore u will still go to heaven!
Without Faith It is impossible to please God,, for God is a Rewarder of them that diligently seek HIm….. I say throw out the baby, the bathwater and the tub, and inerrantly the True God still be there for those who Diligently seek Him.. God reamins big enough if HE wants to come into the world not just in written word, that one claims is inefficient, then HE will make him self into a human and visit us as a visitor right in our faces to show us HIs real love and perspective on His Godship, anf willingness to become himself what he made us to be,…OHHHH I forget . He did this already. . and proved his GOdship through Witnessed resurection from the TOmb that was under care,and guardship o f the ROman soldiers ……. …. what proof exists!!… I wonder if their accounts have been altered too??? haha..
Well… whether we believe it or not, he says that he is coming back one day to take his saints away…. THIS I AGREE with you… THAT will BE the Proving of who is the ones that TRULY BELieved and HAD FAITH, and Diligently Prayed their faith.. I read a thesis on law of relativity, and accuracy of relative matters,and the outcome is based on the correctness of the molecular and structural components. anything that is left un- organized by either human or non- human progression is CHAOS.
that all things are connected but not necessarily automatically in the proper order. SO if WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES IS TRULY IN ORDER OF ITS DECLARED EXISTENCE, IT WILL HAVE PATTERN AND WILL WILL WILL REPRESENT THE MATTERS ACCURATELY OF THE AUTHOR, AND THOSE WHO WANDER INTO BY “ACCIDENT” WILL FIND IT WORKS, INASMUCH AS ITS INTENDED TO DO>> THe ouTCOME WILL EVENTUALLY BE ONENESS WITH GOD AND HIS LAWS> AND WILL DRAW THE SUBSTANCE OF THE CREATED INTO THE EMBRACE OF THE CREATOR>>
WHAT YOU REALLY ARE STUCK IS ACCEPTING THAT THE THIRD GRADE TEACHER HAD ANY ABILITY TO TEACH YOU ANYTHING. BUT WHEN SHE TAUGHT YOU THE RELATIVITY OF MATHEMATICS IN THE LITTLE TINY COSMOS YOU LIVED IN YOU FOUND THAT 2+2 = 4… and if you didn’t accept that, you were a rel zombie by the time you tried calculus..
WE have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that you take heed as unto a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawn. and the day star arise in your heart.. knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is given by any private interpretation, FOr the Prophecy came not by the will of man, but HOLY men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy GHost. ( II Peter 1:21)
Rest assured that alterance of the WOrd of GOd does come with a penalty, but if you are sincere of heart and seek after him, He will reward
you for it, and reveal his power in your life….. FAIth, by the way is required.. and faith is the spark plug of religion.. TELL ME PRAY TELL ME YOU DON”T BELIEVE THERE IS ACTUAL FIRE AND SPARK AT IGNITION POINT? TELL THOSE WHO HAVE LIVED AND WALKED THIS EXPERIENCE THAT THERE IS NOTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED IN THEIR LIVES AS A RESULT OF LIVING IT!!!!!!
That is the preposterousness of saying THERE IS NO GOD!! that is just my closing opinion, but their is a scripture by one of those authors who died and bled for it, that “only a fool would say in his heart, there is no GOD… I pray you are not in that category, but rather still in the process of finding Him.. I speak IN LOVE with concern… sometimes we need to have someone else be concerned for us, when we know not we are in danger. -end.
I feel more comfortable knowing when I die I’ll be going to Heaven to be with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I don’t know how a person can rest not knowing where they’ll spend eternity. So I’ll much rather believe than be deceived.
Study Christian history. Christianity was a pure faith until man corrupted it. As soon as Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome after he converted, this combined the church with state and struggles for power began. Catholicism (which strangely enough means “Universal”, began the idea of “Christendom”…a Christ based kingdom. Henceforth popes arose one after the other, each having to create a new law or sacrament to stamp their name and justify their position. Factioning arose out of Luther’s attempt to “get back” to the teachings of the Bible. Having said all that, you cannot deny the truths that Jesus had preached. Man corrupted what Jesus had preached. Concerning the aboriginals in the world (past and present), have you not read what Paul had said concerning the Gentiles? Paul stated that even though the Gentiles had not known God, they still had the moral values and basic right/wrong knowledge and therefore were held accountable by that. It’s those that reject Jesus that need answer for it. Do you also deny that science has been proven wrong time and time again, but Chirstianity has never been proven wrong. You cannot disprove it, because God exists and is before time and created time. We cannot comprehend the wisdom of God. To think that man could actually be as wise or wiser than God. With how fallible we are, that would be a terrifying though. Does the clay say to the potter, “Why am I made this way?” How many times have “people of supreme intellect and wisdom” set out to disprove the Bible, only to find out that they cannot and yet become believers. I will agree that you cannot put your faith in religion, or a specific church for that matter, as they are both man-made. But the Bible, however many times it is translated, is still the Word of God. These translations are actually minimal, and changes are done because many words will not translate from one language to another, not because of some “Davinci type” conspiracy theory. Christianity is based on three major principles…Faith, hope and love…and if everyone somehow got back to these truths instead of arguing over such thiongs as whether or not infant baptism is correct or the idea of purgatory, then we would live in peace and harmony. As far as your misogynistic viewpoint idea, women are also held very highly in the Bible as well…Mary the mother of God, for example…Esther, Mary Magdeline (who was actually highly regarded by Jesusfor her repentant and obedient heart) to name a few. Do not let your one bad experience with a church lead you astray. The apostles even warned the early churches of “wolves in sheeps clothing and to test all who say they are apostles so that you might not be led astray”. Paul even says to search the scriptures for true doctrine. I challenge you to study, not from movies or magazines articles, but from real-life texts and testimonies of those who have witnessed the validity of the Bible and the awesome, unimaginable power and glory of Jesus. Then do your postings.
Mystic: That one is really easy. If you know how vast, huge and infinitely large a place the universe is, you will know there are earths where no life happens. Millions, billions, megazillions of them, actually. Only we are not there to witness them. We exist in an earth that happens to support life, because that is the reason we exist.
I myself am a buddhist, by the way. We believe in reincarnation but not God. Afterlives and karma, but not worshipping. Plus people with different beliefs don’t go to hell just because they are different. Yes, codemac, Buddhism does not denounce other religions. It makes sense enough for me.
Had I grown up in your country, I would have done the same: turn into an atheist.
As a fellow “former” Christian, I agree with everything you say. If I sat down to type out a list for “the record”, it would be somewhat different than yours.
The real reasons for most Christians, after you get past the programming & the propaganda, are:
1) They perceive their beliefs have made them happier & better functioning people and
2) They are parts of communities made up of fellow believers
Politics or religion, when it comes to matters of faith, the human thing to do is to come up with a logic for our emotional decisions.
Many Christians just aren’t doing their job. It was once written that the single greatest cause of Atheism are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and deny him by their livestyle. It sounds as if many people on this board have had their share of meetings with these type of Christians.
I once read a document that humorized the self-stated knowledge level of people. High school graduates thought they knew everything, but by the time the same person obtained a Ph. D, they fully stated that they knew nothing. The same should really be used in religon. I’ve studied Christianity for years, and I will be the first to say that I know nothing and have fewer answers about the topic. But, to take a bit from the great Kevin Smith, I have a good idea.
That should be the whole of the subject…..to have a good idea. Is the Bible in its currant form errant? Perhaps. But by faith we hope that it got the big things right so that we have an idea on how to live. Love God and love your neighbor. If someone really adheres to that, where is the harm? They go to church and help an old lady across the street. Even if they are wrong, and there’s no God…..they’ve just wasted the same percent of their life as others waste in front of an Xbox or looking at porn. Still, no big deal.
Closed mindedness is often seen in the religous, not just the Christians. But in all fairness, it is just as often displayed in the often self-described open minded Athiests. Being involved in molecular biology for a number of years, I can say that it is dang hard to actually see things like mitochondria and lysozomes and DNA. I would bet that no more than 2% of Athiests have actually seen these cell structures, but a far greater percentage wouldn’t dispute the fact that they exist. Why? Because it’s in a book. Likewise, the whole of Christianity is in a book.
James,
Could it possibly be that you were not comfortable with going to that particular congregation and that you used it as a excuse to stop going altogether?
I believe that the Bible is inerrant. That is not to say that all the translations (yes, made by human man or the Publisher) always use the same word for their translation. But the Bible as God instructed the original authors to write is inerrant.
There are plenty of examples of women in the Bible who were good, helpful, faithful,loving and loyal. Ruth and Naomi, Priscilla, Mary and Martha and the list goes on.
As for “the belief that no matter how bad you are all you have to do is accept Jesus and all is forgiven”. Well…I don’t know what kind of church you went to (I’m guessing a denominational one?), but you/they certainly did not get that from the Bible. If they or you had read what the Bible says about what is needed for Salvation, you would have seen that the Bible says you must Hear the Word, Believe the Word, Repent your sins, and be Baptized (immursed) for the remission of your sins. If a murderer on the electric chair decided to ask God for forgiveness it is ultimately for God to decide. I doubt he will have time to do all of that while he is sitting on the chair.
However, since we are human and we all seem to have this need or desire to know why? and how? We could ask a few questions to hazard a guess to make us happy. For example: Has this serial rapist/murderer ever Heard the Word of God? Did he Believe the Word of God? Did he repent of his sins? Had he been baptized for the remission of his sins? Just a few things to remember. God is a loving God, but he is also a jealous God. If you cannot follow his directions, you may just get punished. In the old testament God struck down the servant who reached out to catch the Ark of the Covenant as it was falling.( The Israelites had been instructed that no one was to touch it.)
In your scenario, I would guess that no this man will not make it to heaven, but we could ponder these questions about anyone and unless we knew the person well we will never really know the answers to these questions.
The Bible does not spell out everything that we THINK we need to know. For example, I do not know for sure if the aboriginal boy in your scenario would go to Heaven. In my limited human brain, I would like to think that he would. However, whether this fictitious boy (or any real ones that might match his description) makes it into Heaven or not ultimately has nothing to do with my own Salvation, or yours.
For someone who has no problem lacking Faith that the Bible is the written Word of God you seem to have no lack of Faith in your knowledge that China and India have few “Christians”. I do not deny what you say there because I have no Idea, I just point it out because it seems to go against your stated principle of not having blind faith in anything. (Just an observation)
As to your Zombie remark…WHAT?
I am not sure who exactly you are referring to when you say “Christians” are enlightened? I assume you are referring to anybody who tells you they are a “Christian”. I personally have a problem with most of the so-called “Christians” calling themselves that. A true “Christian” follows the word of God and the example set by Jesus. “Do not forsake the Assembly”, “Tithe willingly to the Lord”, Being immersed in Baptism, Avoid the appearance of evil (this one covers so many things) and there are too many examples to mention here. Nowadays anyone who ever stepped into a church once or whose parents used to say “Thanks for the Grub” at mealtimes will call themselves a “Christian”.
If Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Spiritualists, or even anyone who Truly, Truly believes they are a “Christian” has not done what God has instructed in the Bible by the time they die (assuming that they are past the age of accountability, which by the way only God can Judge), then I would GUESS that no matter how “good” a person is, they will not make it into the Kingdom of Heaven. Good works will not get us in. No man except Jesus has ever been or will be perfect, therefore it is only by God’s Grace that any man will make ii into Heaven.
I say no works will get us into Heaven, but there are some works that will ensure we do not make it into Heaven. The only unpardonable sin is Blaspheme. The worst Murderers, Rapists, Pedophiles, etc. can still be forgiven if God deems it.
As to the atrocities committed in the name of religion. Any quack can commit atrocities and say it was because of something religious. This is the way the Devil works. If one person says that he did this in the name of his/her religion whether the act was good or bad, just think how many people like you can then go spouting that all religion is bad and anyone who says they do anything good or bad in the name of religion is not to be trusted. See…how many people were just turned off to God because of that Quack?
It sounds like you had a (some?) bad experience with the Congregation that you attended. My advice would be “Get over it”. I realize there are probably alot of people out there who sympathize with your decision to stop going and just decide that you’ll never know the truth, so why bother. However, I would encourage you to open up your Bible and read for yourself. The only way you can make an informed decision for yourself will be for you to find out straight from the source. No congregation made up of humans will ever be perfect. If you feel like you don’t fit in maybe you need to do something to get involved. And don’t go in spouting everything that you think is wrong with organized religion to a class or group of people. If you have something to say or questions, go to the Elders or Preacher or someone that you think you can trust to work with you to find out the answer and not just tell you what they want you to think without showing you where it is in the Bible.
Just so you know, I now and always have attended the Church of Christ. I have attended the same Congregation for 12 years and believe me, there are times that I feel like I don’t fit in at all. Just make sure that whatever church you attend that if they are not teaching the TRUTH, you get out of there and RUN for your Salvation. I have heard of and visited some congregations that have Church of Christ on the building and yet have gotten away from what the Bible teaches is the real truth because it makes them more appealing to the masses. Beware of false teachers.
I agree with many of your points but I do disagree with the intensity of a few. Christianity itself doesn’t represent a group of people that should intentionally look down upon others for not believing in the same way that they do. I also think that because the Bible says that you have to believe in Jesus, that that doesn’t ensure that you will enter its kingdom. It is so vague though that it is left to the interpretation of others. I just like to give God the credit of being a rational judgement of our character. Personally, I think he knows who is of a good heart, and he doesn’t actually mean believing in the existence of Jesus, but the concept of “Jesus”. Goodness, caring, morale, and a desire to do good I think is more of on the lines of what the Bible’s message was intended to make.
I do believe that many Christians today do unintentionally turn off other potential believers because of our stubborness and inability to accept that our “perfect bible” may have lost some meaning during translation which is entirely possible when translating any book from one language to another. I don’t think it is very logical to say that it is perfect just because it says its perfect. I don’t think anyone would believe me more because I say people should believe me. I also don’t believe the whole idea that “God would not allow his word to be altered”. God allows many things to happen on this earth…..catastrophes, rape, murder, incest……that is his own choice to let all of us choose our own destinies and make choices on our own. He only wishes that we are good because we want to be good and not because he makes us.
I just think as Christians, we need to make sure and accept others ideas, and understand that maybe our own are not 100% correct and just be open to other people’s beliefs, and not to every think any superiority over any one else simply based on the ideas of ourselves. I don’t believe Jesus ever felt that and ever intended for anyone to think of Christians the way that we are thought of to this day.
“Christianity” does not stand for many of the things that this author claimed his reasoning behind why he is not a Christian anymore……but I do believe that many Christians do act in the way that he stated.
-Kristine
God loves everyone, even the evil. Everyone is punished for their sins, no questions asked, but everyone is forgiven if they ask and is truly sorry. Those people who have never heard the word of God and are good people receive the same fate in death as a good christian does, same for animals too. Before we start condemning people of other religions or faiths, remember: ‘judge not, lest ye be judged’ and ‘vengeance is mine, said the Lord’. One of the main tenets of the christian religion is the ability to ‘turn the other cheek’. That is one thing that sets us apart; extremely hard to do when we see those we love and ourselves being hurt.
Be careful who you call a christian though, it is not a badge. It is a way of life, a serenity that comes with knowing that you are loved and completely understood by God.
Tessa,
Everyone is not forgiven just for asking. And animals do not go to Heaven because they have no souls. Man was made in the likeness of God (with a soul) Animals were not.
Good questions. When I was a kid in grade school, we had a study session in ‘religion’. We investigated various religions and discussed them. During these exercises, I started to wonder: ‘did God create Man’ or did ‘Man create God’? I asked for discussion if perhaps Man created his God or Gods to provide easy answers to questions about his natural environment that were too difficult to answer himself. So we had one powerful God who controlled everything, a God who controlled lightning, one for crops, one for the seas, one for fertility, one for the volcanoes, one for earthquakes, one for hurricanes or typhoons, one who constrolled the sun, the moon, the stars. Of course, I was yelled down for asking these stupid questions because I suppose noone wants to question and thus displease the God(s) he believes in. I attend church often but still wonder
I loved reading the comments, especially ones like “Christianity was a pure faith until man corrupted it”. And that if you study Christian history and the Bible it’ll all be revealed etc.
First this tells me that the man that wrote it has never really studied Christian History and he’s never really read the Bible. From the beginning of Christianity there have been power struggles and they couldn’t agree on the most basic tenets of the faith. Those that won the power struggle set the standards but did the right ones win the power struggle.
Read your Bible real slooow and think about what you just read. Take at least a year to read it. You’ll be very surprised by all the foolishness in it!!!
Or try reading “The Vicars of Christ” if you want to read a really repulsive book on Christianity and the Popes. Pretty amazing that Christianity even survived considering the “Real Facts”
It is easier for you to see that life has been created, dear reader, if you study anatomy and molecular biology. There is no way the complex, interdependent biological systems could evolve by chance.
G-d is One: He exists; He is The Reality. There are not two gods.
If that were the case, they had to perfectly agree on everything - otherwise the universe would turn into chaos. Now if they agree on everything, that means one of the two gods is redundant, unnecessary, useless. That would mean that he would not be a god, as being redundant, unnecessary, and useless are not majestic or godly qualities. However, if he was needed then that means the first god is not a really a god either, as someone who needs help is not omnipotent. He would be limited in power, which implies weakness, which is not a majestic or godly quality. Thus, there can only be One G-d.
There are answers to every question that has been posed.
Just remember the Gospel is perfect not man. Look it up @ lds.org
I am an ex-baptist, theological seminarian, Hare Krishna, Morman and more. Your artical is spot on. Religion is one of the largest problems.
Another is being human but I think I’ll stay in that house. Do good to others and yourself.
LN, you are quite right, no one is forgiven by just asking. As I said, you have to be truly sorry. That of course means you have no intention of doing the same wrong again. But, as humans we fail, and fail again and again. To err is human, to forgive is devine. The ability to live your life know that you are unconditionally loved is amazing. If you have not accepted that love yet, try it.
Try faith and not religion, to put your trust in. Christianity should be based on faith not on a Sunday sermon. The Bible that you so callously threw out says, “study to show theyself approved.” You don’t buy a car just on what a commercial says about it, do you? No, you research it and test it. I’m 28 and have been to 6 churches throughout my life and I can tell you that you shouldn’t base what you believe on the man in theh pulpit, but on the love that God sent.
If your right ,your safe– If your wrong OOOOH MMMMY– do you really want to take a chance on it ?
I was choked by religion too. You are right on. I am not denying a God, but it isn’t the nasty one that will destroy the earth. I grew up very dissillusioned being fed that the world was going to end and the antichrist was on his way. It gave me no reason to plan a real life or future. The church I attended, everyone took the Bible as literal meaning. At first it looked good from the outside, but there was everything malicious about it as any social organization will put the most esteemed members up on a pedistal (oh no, they are humble before GOd). I just hope that this world finds peace soon.
I wish James had learned more about Christianity before criticizing it, of course it is easy to cut down soemthing that you don’t fully understand. You should all read the NIV bible, less Old English words, same content.
A few points; The Bible is clear that those who are not exposed to God’s word are not condemned but judged on individual merrits. The Crusades which everyone harks about, citing a violent Christian rap sheet, were a RESCUE mission to stop the murdering of thousands of Christians by Arabs and to reclaim Jerusalem.
Christianity is found in your own soul with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Being someone who had no idea 3 years ago what that meant, I can understand the skepticism, nevertheless it is REAL, no doubts here friends. Christ gives you only three choices, A. He was crazy B. He Lied C. He was the Son of God and what he said, which was written by 3 eyewitnesses, was TRUTH. I have never found anyone that can say, yep, Jesus lied, try it. In history as with court roooms, no one can PROVE things that happened in the past. You can only present evidence. The Bible is written by eyewhitness testimony by people who at the time faced tremendous danger in what they were saying, death was not a fear. Why? They saw Christ rise from the dead and His promise was everlasting life, just believe and know him. For someone to knock something that has changed billions of lives positively including mine, only shows that you have yet to understand and I pray you do soon. Stop bumbling around in this world and it’s lies and dead ends. Love to all, JH
Religon was and is a tool to control people,don’t do this,don’t think that.don’t read this,don’t,don’t don’t.Mind control.And above all don’t question. Little childreen are going through bain washing, going to church 3 times in one day, Sunday school, Bible class,and of course read only the bible at home.Look when you die ,thats it,your time on earth is over and there is nothing else.We evolved from a lower animal to what we are today,PROVEN, not here say ,not no garden,no Adam & Eve.Peope ,THINK use your brain,ask questions,why are Most wars atarted about Religon,Millons of people have died from because of religon,I guess YOUR god must love wars.To me you people are just another brick in the wall.I feel sorry for you.
TO AUBREY…I always thought about that…You know, if there were no God, and I live my life believing there was and then die, I would have no memory of it, no chance for regret, no wishing I had taken advantage of all the world had to offer…I would no longer exist. But for those who do not believe, indulge in all they can thinking that they only have a short time and then die, you WILL have memory of it…you WILL feel regret…and you WILL wish you had believed as you are standing in front of Jesus awaiting judgement. I would much rather believe in eternal life in heaven than only a few years in this world. Even if I were wrong, just having that hope and faith fills me with sooo much more happiness and joy than the thought of impending doom. It is a fact, all you non-believers, that you will die. It is inevitable. This world will be gone…we have destroyed it beyond repair, as we will continue to destroy ourselves. Those who hold an optimistic view in saving the world (which is will not happen) are more foolish than those awaiting the return of Jesus. It is a choice. I cannot make it for you, though I would if I could. Science will not save you…it seems that every new discovery in science only adds to the fact that our time is short. All I can do is pray.
To Don…
How is it that I missed this….it is PROVEN that we evolved from a lower animal? Did I just totally miss that discovery of the “missing link”?
Quit making things up. You can come from monkeys if you you want, I prefer to be created by GOD.
I would like to pose a question; does cold exist?
Aubrey: I have heard that before….If the writer of this article is wrong then God is unjust. I can set myself away from church and be a very moral person. I have seen the most arrogant, selfish ,lying , deceiving people within the church. It is no different than people out on the street or anywhere! I am not afraid that God will throw me in hell. I feel actually closer to God than I was when I was in church trying to fit in with all those dolled up well-to-do people. We are only fragile humans, not dieties that should strive to be perfect and believe a certain way. I like myself better now. I no longer look at people and think that they are going to hell because they are a certain way, or misinformed. How can anyone know everything? It is humanly impossible! SO if the writer is wrong for those honest findings and listening to inner guidence rather than the outside guidence of the church, how and why would God punish?
Also I will add, having children myself and seeing what Andrea Yates did to her children–I can say I understand why she did it. She was taught that the children will reach an age of accountabliity. She thought they would all go to hell, so in her mind she saved them from going to hell by drowning them before they reached the age of accountability. Maybe Christians should not have children because they are taking a chance that their children will go to hell if they reach that age of accountibility (which age is it 8? 10? 16? Does God have it set ?) and what if that kid tries a cigarette or has sex out of wedlock and gets hit by a car the next day without asking God to forgive them?
I am just sad to see all these people blindly “brainwashed” (I know that is quite a harsh word, but I don’t know how else to put it) by their parents and communities to believe a certain way. Some kids have no chance to determine their own belief system, because their parents push it on them. It’s probably not the parents’ fault, because their parents did it to them, and so on.
I enjoy very much the religious debate, and think it is healthy to do so. People spouting out that their beliefs are the right way, the only way have the worst brainwashing, and I feel sorry for them. Humans, however we were created, have reasoning skills, and if we blindly follow what we were told when we were children, or what society tells us to believe, our talents are wasted, and we will never learn from ourselves.
I won’t tell you what I believe, cause it doesn’t matter. What matters is what YOU believe…not your parents, not your community…YOU. You should take a step back from your beliefs and make sure you believe them, and not just cause your parents did.
Well now….no God eh? Then where did we come from? Perhaps God is not a person or an entity. Perhaps God is simply “The Creative Force of the Universe”….and perhaps God or Force invented evolution and created everything through that evolutionary process. Perhaps that God invented ( somehow) us to carry out Godly things here on earth.
Perhaps this is a free will universe where the only Godly events are orchestrated through us not directly from a big guy sitting on a cloud.
Perhaps the various books of the bible are allegories which simply tell a story within a story about spiritual growth…Perhaps we really shouldn’t care if all of those events really happened….perhaps we should look for the story inside the story that applies to our lives and not worry if it is an actual historical event.
Jim
To All,
This sure made me glad I did somestudy and meditation with Jesus. I, just a meer seedling in the field growing.
We all forget to notice who the opponent is, Satan! He is ruling this world. He comes for three things, to steal, kill, and destroy! We can fight among ourselves to satans glory.
The thing we all need to strive do do in this spiritual warfare is to become a disciple of Christ (student). I battle everyday to fend off the opponent. 35 years of my life I lived for me! Jesus came to serve and not be served. We must strive to live our life’s by every Word of God! The Word is God! We all have sinned and sin deserves death! All will be judged! Not by man! Every knee will bow! You can do it now and submit to Christ or you will do it later! The Word does not state only christian’s will bow or only non christians will be judged, all will come before Him. I fall everyday and strive to get better and repent from 35 years of living a sinners selfish life, now I want to live for Jesus and become His student.
Satan was God’s right hand man, all of us under estimate how powerful he is! But we all have the mind of Christ if we open the door and let him in. It is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life and still doing, to turn from my sinful nature and live my life for Christ, I thank Christ for what he did for me, the price he paid on that cross, I know he rose from the dead and was resurected on the third day. And the example he demonstrated for me. May Jesus give us all the strenght to win the spiritual warfare we are facing and will face! You either believe the Bible is 100% true and fact or it is all false! there is no in between period! Thus says the Lord our God!
Ending, I’m a sinner and I’m a christian, I will stumble and fall, I will get up by the Grace of God. Who am I a simple man to even think I should understand God ways, how arrogant of me that I should have a better way than the Creator. I pray for all the saints (believers) and the sinners that we may help each other get stonger thru Christ my Savior!
Amen
The Bible has to be true in whole, or not at all. It’s basis is on the fact that all these things did take place, otherwise it is a lie. Just the same as those who hold that Jesus was a “good teacher”, but not the Son of God. As HARVARD put it, “Christ gives you only three choices, A. He was crazy B. He Lied C. He was the Son of God and what he said, which was written by 3 eyewitnesses, was TRUTH.” If he is not the Son of God, then he was either crazy or a liar…which would not make him a very good teacher. Same goes for the Bible…if it is not truth, than the stories which exist within cannot be true.
right on, Matthew
Reading your writings on the subject, I wonder why did you write this. Who cares why your not a Christian anymore. Then it hits me, God cares. If you didn’t care either way, you would not have cared enough to write this article. This is a struggle you have with the subject. What I find troubling is that you decide to go in a public forum and plant seeds of doubt in others. That is not right.
Christianity is about Christ. People go to church for the wrong reasons. You go to feed your spirit. Just as we feed our bodies 3 times a day, we need to feed our inner spirit more than once a week at church. If we would do that God will reveal himself to us and we would grow in Him. If you don’t have faith, what do you have? As we grow in the faith people will notice because we become by His strength a different person. Christians aren’t perfect but covered with Christ’s righteousness. We sin, we gossip, we hurt other’s feelings but the more you grow in the faith by reading His Word little by little you are controlled by the Holy Spirit. I’m so glad I have a Saviour who died for my sins and forgives and forgets when I confess my sins. We are to feed on His Word and look to Christ not to people.
Lots of you are apparently coming in here to try to get me to change my mind, or at least to make the case for Christianity to anyone who may be reading these comments. (Which wasn’t what I intended, but I was aware it might happen if this got many hits.) The problem with what many of you are arguing is that it starts from an assumption of truth - either in the Bible or just in Christianity in general. Try to consider the possiblity that maybe it isn’t, and then re-read your arguments. They don’t make very much sense.
Some of you sound, quite truthfully insane. Butterfly - I worry about your children. How can anyone condone what Andrea Yates did? You are talking about murdering your children! As Aubrey said, “If your right ,your(sic) safe– If your(sic) wrong OOOOH MMMMY– do you really want to take a chance on it ?” (Which BTW, is about the most chickenshit reason to believe in something I’ve ever heard. Take a chance on what exactly? Living the only life anyone of us is assured of having to its fullest? Sounds good to me!)
I don’t know where some of you read that I said anything about evolution or creationism or there being no god. I can only assume that it was the same place you read that the Bible is true. For the 2nd time, I am not an Atheist. I am an Agnostic. There may or may not be a god. I don’t think it is possible to rationally call it either way based on what I have experienced in my life. As for evolution/creationism, I never said anything about it, but if you were wondering what I think (I know you weren’t) I’ll tell you. First, let me say that I have never really studied this because I honestly don’t give a fuck. I think it is possible that the Big Bang and/or the first seeds of life were created by a higher power (if one exists). I don’t think that it is necessary for our Universe to start that way, but it is possible. I really doubt that there has been any force guiding the development of life on this planet. All of the evidence I am familiar with points to evolution.
First off I feel genuinely sorry for the writer. He’s certainly confused and trying to come to terms with what he believes while trying to denounce Christianity. I think this in turn is justification for himself as to why he doesn’t need Christ in his life. By his questions, I wonder if he was truly a Christian or not and doubt if he was saved (truly accepted Jesus as his savior and trusted Him). Maybe the church he was attending didn’t truly show him Jesus or he had bad experiences there.
Ok, let me address each area you’ve touched upon.
Accuracy of the Bible - Have you found anything that proves it inaccurate? Why is it the best selling book of history? Why do historians and archaeologists use it as a reference etc.?
Yes there are different translation of the Bible, but is that because other people think they can interpret it better than others? Is that God’s or the Bible’s fault? I don’t mind your questions, but you need concrete evidence to declare something false I’m afraid.
Women in the Bible- That’s just how it was. Would you rather have an inaccurate account? It may have not been right, but there was no “moral code on treating women” in the Old Testament. Later on in the New Testament we are told how to treat one another and things have since changed..
On a more woman positive note, what about Rahab?
What about the Proverbs woman? What about Ruth? You seem to find this stuff hard to believe, but if it were easy would it be the truth?
No Jesus, no heaven - We don’t set the rules, God does. A rule is a rule no matter what and there are no exceptions, otherwise that would be unjust. Now what is just and unjust compared to you and me is different, but the Bible gives us the criteria for being “justified” and not.
God created us, don’t you think He gets to set the rules according to how we live? It’s just like having a child, if you are their parent you give them certain rules that they should abide by for their own good. Now the kids may not understand or like it, but that’s why you are their parent and that’s why God is God.
The Bible tells us that eternity is written upon the heart of man as well as His commandments. Why do you think even the remotest of people have some sort of moral code? They didn’t just grab it out of the air.
Zombies - well that’s the great part, Jesus is no zombie. He rose from the dead and is alive today. Zombie implies mindless following while Jesus has enabled us and given us great enabling wisdom and freedom so it’s quite the opposite. Now whether you choose to follow it or not is up to you. God didn’t want a bunch of mindless followers, that’s why we have a free will, free to choose or deny Him. The choice is yours.
Different religions - Yes, there are way too many out there now. Christianity is God’s attempt to reach out to man. The other religions are mans attempt to reach God. Which do you think you’d rather follow? No other “religion” has a risen savior who conquered death and rose again. Christianity is not a “religion” it’s a direct relationship with God himself.
Atrocities - It’s easy to stand here and judge the occurrings that you’ve mentioned, but all things happen for a reason. Now whether they happened because someone perverted their particular religious beliefs or translations depends upon the person. We live in an evil world where bad things happen. And a great many of times the bad guys (satan) are going to make it look like the good guys (God/Jesus) did it.
The idea of others - Well, there are those who are going to heaven and those who are not. How else can you not divide that up into two separate camps. It’s the same as there are those with cancer and those without. And we’re supposed to tell those who have the cancer (condemnation of sin and death) that they have it and there’s a cure (Jesus). We as Christians don’t believe we are better than anyone else, quite the contrary. Look at Jesus, who do you think He thought He was better than?
In the end, the choice is yours. You must decide for yourself whom you will follow. Will you follow yourself and your finite wisdom? Will you follow someone else promoting another religion? Will you follow Jesus? But the fact is you must either deny or accept Him and when you stand before Him you must account for your decision. I’m not afraid of buddha or who ever else there is out there because I know they aren’t God and don’t tell me what’s to come. They didn’t fulfill over 300 prophecies. Try to figure out the odds of that. Fulfilling something someone said about you before you were born, during your life and in death.
Either way, I pray that the truth will be revealed to you in one way or another and that you’d be open and willing to accept it.
First off I agree with some of the things you are saying such as there were people killed in the name of “religion”. But you must understand that “religion” and “God” are two very different things. Religion is a politically structured way to worship God. I do not put God in a box like that. I am a Christian, period. I believe in Jesus and that he is the son of God that died for our sins, past, present and future. However I am NOT a religious person nor do I believe in religion. Again it is just different political parties if you will of how to worship God. Like Democrats and Repulicans have different views on how to run a country and Catholics and Baptists have different views on how to worship God. Religion and God are two totally different entities and never should be seen as the same. So when people say they are religious, it’s not the same as saying I believe in God and worship him according to the Word (Bible) ………..period. I don’t need a priest, pastor, etc. to tell me how to worship God. Thanks.
I truly pity you.It’s to bad you didn’t have enough faith.Perhap when you find yourself pinned between a rock and a hard place you will cry out to Jesus.Your first mistake was trying to analize God’s Word with human reasoning.Second you put your eyes on the people instead of keeping your eyes on Jesus.And third you have to remember what the Lord said about the last days.The hearts of many will wax cold.And there will be a great falling away from the truth.Christians walk by faith and not by sight.Without faith it is impossible to please God.Trust in the Lord with all you heart and lean not on your own understanding.God Bless and I pray you find your way back to the Saviours arms.
There are times where I have doubts about everything, including God. I was raised Catholic but I have not been to church in many years. I think that it is brave for someone to express his/her feelings here publicly no matter how unpopular they may be. I don’t see it as planting seeds of doubt in others. If you are a strong Christian than you shouldn’t be affraid to hear someone else’s point of view about Christianity. Anyone who claims to strongly believe something and then is totaly turned around by someone’s words or beliefs, never truly believed in the first place. I can’t say that God really exists or he doesn’t. I can’t say that the Bible is just simply stories or the truth. What I do know is that there are many great mysteries that we will never solve. In my humble opinion, I tend to lean towards the belief that there is a superior being behind everything. Maybe, it is just so complex that our small minds just can’t grasp the TRUTH!
To Eric Baker
Plasms 14:1 saysThe fool said in his heart.”There is no God.Be not decieved God is not mocked.Whatsoever a man or woman sows they will reep.
It’s not that I have a lack of faith. I just have an abundance of reason.
Lee:
You better watch out, you sound like an Agnostic
I’m in agreement to the statement Lee made about.If you were truly converted you would’nt of left.True convertion can not be moved.Giveyour heart to Christ and stand firm in your belief and you will soon see Jesus is real and Hewill make himself real to you,that you will know beyond the shadow of doubt.
Lee No I’m Penecostal Born again Spirit filled
Lee
So please don’t attack me again. Thank You!
To James Allen
Truthfully, I am not really sure that I am qualified to be an Agnostic.
I am more like someone who just thinks freely and comes to his own conclusions about everything. These are good discusions to have.
Especially, when men are killing other men over differences in religious
beliefs. One thing that I truly believe is that there is not enough LOVE is the world. This is one sad place!
James:
So you’re basically saying that the only way you can be a Christian is if you give up your free will? Isn’t that supposedly God’s gift to mankind that set’s him apart from his other creations? Seems odd for God to ask for it back or to condemn you to Hell. Weird guy, that God fellow
Religion is dead.Christianity is not a religion.It’s a Divine Relationship with God Almighty though His Son Jesus Christ.
Lee:
All I can say is “Amen”
To James
Sorry, but I was not attacking you. I meant no offense. I was just making a general comment about myself. We must all try not to get offended by other’s opinions. That’s where trouble arrises. PEACE!
Yes God gave you a free will to chose between Him or the devil.God doesn’t force His Love upon anyone.Your either a slave to Christ or a slave to sin(the devil) It’s your choice.Nevertheless,your a slave to something.If you are not serious about is issue.Then I refran from trying to reason to you so.Good Luck
You are all so right and that is the problem. You all think you are right . You are aligned with your tribal traditions. These traditions devide you and drive you from one another and you manifest hatred and dislike among your ownselves. What on this earth causes you to hate earth and its highest creation your fellowman??? That is correct, it is your traditional beliefs. Maybe it is those traditional beliefs that need to be challenged. Keep those beliefs that bring you to each other and the earth. The rest are not for you or anyone or anything else. The world of creation is perfect. Creation, all that is created we see as balanced. When do we quit talking traditions and start doing what causes us to come together, and what will benefit our mother earth????? I hear it already the argument is beginning again. Have it your way, but remember if it does not work————— and who has made it that way??Do not blame God, the problem is much closer. Smile and be happy that is the answer really.
Can’t we all just get along? Enjoy the rest of your day folks!
James:
If you cannot be moved after conversion then you lack free will after that point. I don’t see what that has to do with being serious. You know I’ve caught you, so now you’re trying to slip out of it. The idea of a Christian refusing to reason with someone is filled with irony. I’m sure you’ll have no problem with refusing to reason
Wrong God say leave the fool alone.Your not trying to reason. You want to argue or debate the word of God.God tells you what you need to do for salvation.If you refuse thats your choice.I have to leave and do some work for the chuch I got to so please be careful what you say.Thank You.
I saw your story on Netscape.com and commented there but ran out of room there. So I’ll repeat it and add a little to it here.
Belief-based religions are inherently flawed for the very reason that they are based on belief. For those who cannot comprehend that concept you may retreat to your dogma for comfort. Others read on.
Some obvious observations: Belief is a substitute for not knowing. If you have insufficient knowledge you rely on belief. As you gain more and more knowledge you rely less and less on belief. If you have complete knowledge you no longer believe at all, you know. Believing is at one end of the spectrum, knowing at the other.
Many religions state as their first premise that belief in the savior/god/teaching is required to be saved. No path to knowing is taught or acknowledged. Indeed, often it is asserted that humans cannot know, they must simply believe.
For those who are now going to rush in and say they *know* their religion is true, go back to the first premise of your religion and see if it is based on belief.
There is at least one religion that is not based on belief at all, but instead on knowing through direct personal experience. It teaches how to develop quality of mind so that you can see clearly the truth of existence. It is not a set of beliefs; it is a set of practices that leads to wisdom.
One of the first teachings of this religion’s founder was “Don’t believe something because someone told you or it is written in a book. You must practice and know for yourself.” Another great teacher of this religion said “The goal is elimination of belief, for once you know then you no longer believe.”
Clinging to beliefs is one of the greatest obstacles to knowing the truth. Belief in a god, belief in no god (atheism is a belief folks), belief that science has all the answers - a mind clinging to these things is not open to seeing the truth.
It isn’t some new trendy religion. It has been around for a couple thousand years. I’m not going to push it. You can find it yourself if you wish.
My imaginary friend in the sky is better than your imaginary friend in the sky : )
I no longer am a Christian, either, for many of the same reasons you cited. The main reason that I am not a Christian, though, is because I don’t believe in the need for a savior. I think Jesus was real, and I think he had a strong belief system that he felt a need to share with people. Just as many people today do. Maybe he was more charismatic than most. But that’s not enough to make me worship someone. I don’t need a savior, and I think the concept just sets up a victim mentality.
I think your last point, about “the others” is more cultural than religious, it’s just that for some people, religion and culture are one in the same. Separating “them” from “us” is probably a vestige of our reptilian brains.
As a Christian, I agree and find it hard to imagine sometimes there is a God, invisible to us, being, omnipotent, omipresent etc. Why did it have to be that way? Why can’t we just be here for a while and die forever? Well, that is not how we have come about which I found proof through a spirituall relationship with Christ, not algorithms and theories which man’s limited mind designed. Alot of you are aloof and are confident in your inteligence i can see., asking us to consider your side, there is no God perhaps. I think every Christian has done that and with a leap of faith, true Wisdom is revealed. Sound strange, yet positively true. I see so much more now, darkness and light in people situations, how to handle them, guiding principles in my life that allow peace and happiness, all from God. I was a terrible sinner, drug user, often in bars, concerts doing whatever. I repented and it has been sunshine since, why?? Something is out there, go get it folks. I still sin and a good Christian will admit this and NEVER look down on those who do as well. We all fall short of God’s glory. God cannot tolerate sin, this is an obvious fact. In his pure nature it keeps us at arms length so to speak. His solution to our imperfection is to send a son, born of heaven and earth, innocent in every way, to die humiliated although a king. He died to pay the sin debt of all manking folks. ALL. Christianity only asks this, believe, repent, pray (relationship). No trips to Mecca, wondering if you only fed more poor, said more chants stayed on your Knees more you would have everlasting life. It is done with confession and submission to Christ’ living in you, not the devil, there is another choice.
Now, to the evolutionists. If you have trouble believing there could be a God, I have a more fantastic, SCI FI scenario. A huge explosion 4 billion years ago created human DNA eventually. A substance containing more information than all the libraries in NYC., barely seen in a microscope. Inteligent design is the answer. Have a great day, H
Terry:
Us vs. Them is a cultural thing, but it is actively encouraged by religions. Which is why I included it.
Allen your totally wrong… The Bible is clear on this issue: the aborigial and the serial rapist will probably go to heaven. God has way to deal with situations like this.
The answers you seek are all in the Bible.
mpc:
You got any citations?
If you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you are his child. He is not going to leave you alone. He loves you and will bring you back regardless of how distorted your view on Christianity becomes. You are his child. If you didn’t like your church, then change churches. A church that is spirit filled will have a place for you. Remember people are not perfect and there will always be “someone” in each church that will make you feel uncomfortable. Go to Church to grow stronger in the Lord. He is supernatural and will touch your heart without your control. I pray that the Lord show you the way because He is the way, the truth and the life!
Just wanted to jump in and add my 2 cents. In my opinion, both the Biblical origins of man and the scientific origins can coexist without one being right and the other wrong. God did create the universe and he did it through steps which science calls the Big Bang. Again, in my opinion man did evolve, which is a more elaborate way of saying that man was made from the dust of the earth by God. The Bible was written in simpler times for simple people. They would have never understood the complexities of science. I am not claiming to know this to be 100% true but it is just a logical conclusion to the origins of man and earth. Let’s face it, we don’t have the ability to go back in time or to prove or disprove anything from the far past. Lets concentrate on making the present and future the best that it can be for our children and their children. There is just too much hate in this world. We should use our differences to learn from each other and not use them as an excuse to kill your neighbor.
What we seem to be missing in this debate is an understanding that 1. no judgement is claimed on those who have not had the chance to come to know God and 2. as good as anyone of us are, no one is perfect.
Also missing in this debate is a simple truth, life is not fair. Whether a believer or not, athiest and agnostic, Christian and Muslim can agree. The desire for redemption, in whatever form it takes, is also universal. If it were not so, Hollywood wouldn’t exist since a large amount of it’s revenue relys on stories about redemption of some sort.
I am never going to prove that God exist to Eric Baker. Neither is he going to prove to me that God doesn’t.
As for religious institutions, they are run by people and are therefore flawed as any computer programer will tell you. Put not your trust in other people, but in Jesus alone. Even if you believe that the scriptures have been altered, which they certainly have, the overall message of the bible is hope. Whether it took 7 days or 14 billion years, here we are and without hope we are all lost ( and no, I don’t mean the show about the airplane on the creepy island either).
Thanks for reading.
To Jeff Meyers
Well said sir!
You talked about what people say or do but to know God and his word rrequires a personal relationship quit seeing relign through the eyes of others and do your own bible study and find out who God is.
What reason is there to believe in God? Christianity and all modern religions are just the next in a long line of superstitions. The burden of proof belongs to those who would have people believe something. I don’t need to prove there is no god. That is the default position. There are many different religions to choose from and I treat them all the same. Proove it, and I’ll believe. I will no longer base my life on something just because some dusty old book tells me to.
For those who believe in a god, I believe in only one less god than you do. You applied reason to reject the many other gods people have offered you. Why do you not apply that some reasoning to the god you believe in? He/she will not hold up any better to scrutiny than the gods of your neighbors. Let go of your superstitions. You’ll be a better person for it.
Sara:
I don’t think that everyone is born an Atheist. Everyone is born worshiping their mother.
Whether you believe in God or not, you must all agree that there is simply too much hate in the world. Most of it caused by greed, hate and ignorance. Christians condeming non Christians. Jews fighting with Muslims. Muslims killing Christians and Jews. This has been going on for thousands of years.
It seems that destruction is the final destination for the train that humanity has been riding since the beginning of time. PRETTY LAME!
tru dat
haha. On Netscape someone is claiming you are a “psuedo-intellectual elitist.” Congrats, honey, on your new-found elitism. Now where is your hefty paycheck to go along with that? I’ll be needing it.
Are you refering to me?
This is not a advertisment for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints otherwise known as the Mormons. But if one wants to see a Christian religious where all the above criticisms are both addressed and no longer valid then one might want to learn more about them. These criticisms are only accurate on specifics Chrisian groups and not Christianity as a whole.
I wish everyone could read this, not just the cristians or as i like to call them SATANS, but every religion, muslims, jews, scienetology, blah blah.
Why I don’t think the afterlife makes a good argument. Normally, I would have just posted it in here, but this discussion is getting a little unwieldy.
Sara, PROVE that Nappolean existed, prove that pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock, prove that Caesar was emperor etc. No pictures, no tape recordings, only written accounts. Did these things happen? Eye whitness accounts work for the above, with Jeffrey Dahlmet and OJ trials and works with the deciples that left everything, followed Christ and were persecuted for it. Since when do authors write something they could be beaten and hung on a cross for? Not many people have found in history a reason. These guys could not keep their mouths shut. Were they crazy, or confident? You clearly need to read some of the above comments but most importantly the workd of God. For your own good. sister.
These things are so confusing, Sam, were you talking to me? I did like your post, but I was actually refering to the fact that I’m a GOD! The baby at the top of the blog is my biggest worshipper. His sister isn’t quite as devoted. She has a multi-god system.
Satan’s the “father of lies” Rob. Congrats, your daddy’s proud.
Have a good day everyone! Whether you believe in God or not, make it a point to help someone out today.
Later-
I don’t care if Napoleon existed, although I find that to be a more reasonable claim than god. Neither really has any bearing on my life.
As for people dying for their beliefs, 9/11 comes to mind. Those hijackers actually DIDN’T make me believe in Allah, so why should I believe in Jesus because someone else died for that belief?
wow. how did you get so confused on the simple truth of the bible? True, some so-called christians give God’s message a bad rep. I just hope you do enough research to find the answers to your questions.
The soap maker said, “what good is religion? Look at all the trouble
and misery of the world! It’s still there, even after years –
thousands of years — of teaching about goodness and truth and peace.
Still there, after all the prayers and sermons and teachings. If
religion is good and true, why should this be?”
The minister pindered this question but said nothing. They continued
walking until he noticed a child playing in the gutter. Then the
minister said, “Look at that child. You say that soap makes people
clean, but see the dirt on that youngster. Of what good is soap? With
all the soap in the world, over all these years, the child is still
filthy. I wonder how effective soap is, after all!”
The soap maker protested. “But, my friend, soap cannot do any good
unless it is used!”
“Exactly!” replied the minister…
If the god of the bible exists, he apparently hates women. Read these quotes from his “innerrent word.” How could anyone teach their daughter to believe such horrible things?
“Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.” (1 Corinthians 14:34)
“If any man takes a wife, and goes in on her, and detests her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, ‘I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin…” (Deuteronomy 22:13,14)
“But if … evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones…” (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)
“Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her as a covering.” (1 Corinthians 11:13-15)
“When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.” (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)
“Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.” (Leviticus 12:2)
“But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.” (Leviticus 12:5)
“Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (I Timothy 2:11-14)
“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.” (Ephesians 5:22-24)
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
“Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.” (Hosea 13:16)
This is an excellent, well written opinion piece. I have been asking the same questions for years…
I must admit that many of these ideas are thought provoking. However, as a Christian, I have done research on many other religions and found that many of them are unsubstancial when you investigate them furthur. My favorite group to confront about this issue seem to think that they are being logical when they are being illogical. It is this theory and mindset that causes the most people to reject God. If you have encountered any science class through out your education you were forced to acknowledge this fatally flawed theory. Of coarse I am referring to the theory of Darwinism and Evolution.
I say that Darwinism is fatally flawed because the four main reasons that support it fall apart upon further study. The first