No means no up to a point (in Maryland, at least)
I don’t really know what to say about this that Feministing, Feministe, and Pandagon haven’t already said, but everyone needs to be aware of this. An appellate court in Maryland has ruled that after sex has begun a woman has no right to withdraw her consent.
Feministe had this to say:
let’s pretend that “average person†Partner A doesn’t stop when “average person†Partner B asks him to. Partner A keeps going. Partner B asks him to stop again. He doesn’t. Then Partner B yells at him to stop. He doesn’t. Partner B tries to push him off. He holds Partner B down. Partner B screams for him to stop, cries, struggles to get away. Partner A doesn’t stop until he’s finished.
What does that sound like? Would a reasonable person, with no intent to harm another, act in the way that Partner A did? Should Partner A have legal protection? Is this a standard that we want enshrined in the law?
Pandagon:
The opinion has the background as to why once consent is given, it can’t be withdrawn. Basically, the tradition of laws against rape are based on the premise that women are male property and once the property is penetrated by another man, she’s deflowered and can’t be reflowered, so anything after the initial penetration is not of interest to a criminal court. No, I’m not kidding, read page 32. [[I read it, she’s right]]
To make the situation even more distressing, it’s clear from reading the rest of the opinion that the victim of the rape wasn’t so much consenting as accepting the notion that she had to be compliant if she didn’t want to get hurt any worse. The assailant had already held her down and tried to shove his penis in her mouth, had already tried to forcibly penetrate her, and when he realized she was going to continue to offer resistance he said that he didn’t want to rape her, so she gave in and right after he started to penetrate her, she resisted again and he wouldn’t stop.
I weep for my daughter.
Femeniste and Pandagon are describing two totally different scenarios. Femeniste is aparently taking part of the situation totally out of context. The crimes were committed when he TRIED to rape her and otherwise sexually abuse her, and he should go to prison for that. Femeniste is not describing a crime at all. “Would a reasonable person, with no intent to harm another, act in the way that Partner A did?” Yes, they would, in this situation, which is totally different than what Pandagon describes. Many would be cought up in the moment, so to speak, and unable to resist temptation after the woman had already consented and started willingly. This was not the case however! She was under threat of violence.
If you really believe that you are either a monster or an idiot. Caught up in the moment?!
Really? When Partner B is screaming for him to stop, crying, struggling to get away? The temptation for Partner A is still irresistable?
I’m finding the urge to vomit almost irresistable.
You are both right, of course. Cancel what I said about ‘caught up in the moment’. I don’t know what I was reading, but I totally missed the part about screaming and pushing him. Please disregard.
“Many would be cought up in the moment, so to speak, and unable to resist temptation after the woman had already consented and started willingly.”
Spoken like a rapist.
Here’s another opinion on what constitutes rape via one of my favorite bloggers: http://bitingbeaver.blogspot.com/2006/10/repost-of-old-favorite.html
The Rapist Checklist
Some things to remember…
1. You are a rapist if you get a girl drunk and have sex with her.
2. You are a rapist if you find a drunk girl and have sex with her.
3. You are a rapist if you get yourself drunk and have sex with her. Your drunkeness is no excuse.
4. If you are BOTH drunk you may still be a rapist.
5. If she’s alternating between puking her guts out and passing out in the bed then you’re a rapist.
6. If she’s sleeping and you have sex with her you’re a rapist.
7. If she’s unconscious and you have sex with her then you’re a rapist.
8. If she’s taking sleeping pills and doesn’t wake up when you have sex with her then you’re a rapist.
9. If she is incapacitated in any way and unable to say ‘Yes’ then you’re a rapist.
10. If you drug her then you’re a rapist.
11. If you find a drugged girl and have sex with her then you’re a rapist.
12. If you don’t bother to ask her permission and she says neither ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ then you could be a rapist.
13. You are a rapist if you ‘nag’ her for sex. Because you manage to ply an eventual ‘yes’ from a weary victim doesn’t mean it’s not rape. You are a rapist.
14. You are a rapist if you try to circumvent her “No” by talking her into it. She’s not playing hard to get, and, even if she IS it’s not YOUR responsibility to ‘get’ her. You’re still a rapist.
15. You are a rapist if you manipulate her into sex when she doesn’t otherwise want it. If you say, “If you loved me you’d do X” then you’re a rapist. If you say, “All the other kids are doing it!” then you’re a rapist.
16. If you threaten her, or act in a way that SHE thinks you’re threatening her then you’re a rapist. If you puff up and get loud and frustrated while trying to ‘talk’ her into sex then you’re a rapist.
17. You are a rapist if you don’t immediately get your hands off of her when she says ‘no’. You are a rapist if you take your hands off of her and then put them back ON her after 10 minutes and she eventually ‘gives in’ to this tactic.
18. You are a rapist if you won’t let her sleep peacefully without waking her every 15 minutes asking her for sex. Sleep depravation is a form of torture and YOU are a rapist.
19. If you’re necking with her and you’re naked and you’ve already gone down on her and she says ‘No’ to sex with you and you have sex with her anyway then you’re a rapist.
20. If you’re engaged in intercourse and she says ‘No’ at ANY point and you don’t immediately stop then you’re a rapist.
21. If she said “Yes” to sex with a condom and that condom breaks and you proceed anyway then you’re a rapist.
22. If she picked you up at a bar looking for sex and then decides that she doesn’t WANT sex and you continue then you’re a rapist.
23. If she changes her mind at ANY point for ANY reason and you don’t immediately back off or you try to talk her into it and get sex anyway then you’re a rapist.
24. If you don’t hit her and she says ‘No’ you’re still a rapist.
25. If you don’t have a knife or a gun or a garrote and she says ‘No’ then you’re still a rapist.
26. If you’re a friend of hers you can still be a rapist.
27. If you had sex with her the night before but she doesn’t want morning sex and you pressure her for it anyway then you’re a rapist.
28. If you’re her husband you can still be a rapist.
29. If it’s your wedding night and she doesn’t WANT to have sex with you and you force or coerce her anyway then you’re a rapist.
30. If she’s had sex with you hundreds of times before but doesn’t want to on the 101st time then you’re a rapist.
31. If you penetrate her anally, orally or digitally against her will then YOU my friend, are ALSO a rapist.
32. Women do not owe you sex.
33. Buying her dinner does not entitle you to sex.
34. Paying her mortgage does not entitle you to sex.
35. Buying her clothing does not entitle you to sex.
36. Buying her lingerie does not entitle you to sex. It also doesn’t mean that she has any obligation to wear that lingerie around you.
37. Spending any amount of money on her does not, ever, entitle you to sex.
38. Seeing her legs or cleavage does not entitle you to sex.
39. If she ‘turns you on’ you’re not entitled to sex.
40. If she has fucked every man in a 10 square mile radius and she doesn’t want to fuck you and you have sex with her anyway, then you’re a rapist.
41. Her clothing is not a reason for you to rape her. Her LACK of clothing is no reason to rape her. If she’s wearing a thong and pasties you STILL have no right to rape her.
42. If she’s a prostitute and she says “No” then you’re a rapist.
43. If she’s a stripper and she says “No” then you’re a rapist. Likewise, if she’s a stripper and she’s been rubbing against your dick all night long and you follow her to her car and have sex with her against her will then you are ALSO a rapist.
44. If you watch a woman being raped without calling the authorities then you’re as bad as a rapist and you may also be a rapist yourself.
45. If you don’t fight rape then you accept rape.
46. If you don’t believe a woman when she says she was raped then you’re encouraging rape.
47. If you choose to remain friends with a man who raped a woman you are encouraging rape.
48. If you confess to the authorities that you raped a woman it does not exonerate you. You are not suddenly a model of good behavior.
49. If you ‘only’ raped one woman, you’re STILL a rapist.
50. You cannot tell who is a rapist by the way they look. Rapists are your friends, your brothers, your fathers and you won’t know it.
51. Do not get frustrated with a woman if she doesn’t trust you. SHE already knows that rapists don’t wear signs on their foreheads. Something you think is innocuous SHE may find terrifying.
Hmmm…I think that about covers it. Any questions? Good.
Sara, bullshit. Read my retraction.
Screaming and pushing are not necesary. No means no, period.
I’m not arguing that. If the guy keeps going for several minutes after she makes it clear, then he is a rapist. My comment was addressing the wrong scenario, which is my fault. Sorry for wasting everyone’s time.
In the NJ case, it’s not the fact that he wouldn’t stop that makes it a rape, it’s the fact that he threatened her. She complied, but she did NOT consent. I count three crimes for which he should go to prison. I hope his large cell mate shows him what it is like on the other side of the ‘I said no’ argument.
Sorry, I meant the Maryland case.