Christian terrorist attempts car-bombing in Iowa
and gets charged with 2nd-degree arson. Last week, as you may (or may not), have heard, David Robert McMenemy attempted to destroy an abortion clinic in Davenport, IA by dousing his car in gasoline and driving it through the wall of the Edgerton Women’s Health Center.
edit - It’s been brought to my attention that Mr. McMenemy drove through the front doors and not a wall. It has also been claimed by a nearby resident that the gasoline was added after crashing through the doors, although this article disputes that.
Fortunately, no one was hurt because he reconsidered lighting himself on fire for God at the last moment. And laughably, the clinic he attempted to destroy does not even perform abortions.
Schadenfreude aside, this is a terrorist act. He should be tried as a terrorist. (Perhaps we should torture him in a secret prison in case he has friends who are also planning other actions. That is our policy now, right?) Second-degree arson is ridiculous. We lock foreigners (and sometimes Americans) up indefinitely in Guantanamo Bay for the slightest possible connections to Islamic terrorism. Yet, this Christian terrorist is charged with a minor felony? Absurd!
Class C felonies, which 2nd degree arson is in Iowa, are punishable by imprisonment of not more than 10 years and a fine between $1000 and $10,000 under Iowa law. He is getting off easy just because he believes in the right make-believe super hero.
For now, you may also believe in the “correct” deity, and find yourself safe from persecution for those beliefs. But consider what happens if public opinion turns or you have a change of heart, and you find yourself in the future’s minority? As a former President said yesterday, “Democracy is about way more than majority rule. Democracy is about minority rights, individual rights, restraints on power.” Lately, we’ve had far too many failures when it comes to living up to those words.
UPDATE David McMenemy’s case has been moved to federal court. He now faces a charge of “committing arson against a business affecting interstate commerce” which carries a prison term of between five and 20 years and a fine.
Over 3,500 terminations per day, 1.3 MILLION per year in the United States alone.
50 or 60 MILLION per year World Wide.
I am a pro-lifer who has no religious convictions at all . I didn’t need the fear of god or anything else to come to my decision, just a good sence of what is right and wrong.
You see we were all once a fetus. Is it beyond the realm of possibilities that when your mother first learned she was carrying you, she may have considered her options? What if she had decided to terminate? Would that have been OK?
You would not exist, if you have children they would not exist, and your (husband or wife) would be married to someone else. You would have been deprived of all your experiences and memories. In this day and age with terminations being so readily available and so many being carried out, if you make it to full term
you can consider yourself lucky. Lucky you had a mother that made the choice of life for you. Don’t you think they all deserve the same basic human right, LIFE?
I’m all for contraception, prevention is certainly better than termination.
Did you know you can get an implant that is safe, 99.9% effective, and lasts for three years? Just think girls not even a show for three years, wouldn’t that be great? I think too many people rely too heavily on the last option (abortion), I think if abortions weren’t so readily available people would manage their reproductive system far better resulting in a fraction of the number of unwanted pregnancies.
World wide there are over 50 MILLION aborted pregnancies each year. In America 3,500 terminations carried out every day, that’s over 1.3 million every year, 50% of all cases claimed that birth control had been used, 48% admitted they took no precaution, and 2% had a medical reason. That’s a stagering 98% that may have been prevented had an effective birth control been used. Don’t get me wrong, I suspect the percentages in Australia would be much the same.
Just a lot of unnessessary killing.
At the point of conception is when life began for you. This was the start of your existance. Your own personal big bang. Three weeks after conception heart started to beat. First brain waves recorded at six weeks after conception. Seen sucking thumb at seven weeks after conception.
I am convinced that in the not too distant future, people will look back at many of the practices of today with disbelief and horror.
ausblog
Sorry I meant to give you this one first -
I’m posting from aus and with you got goin on I’m glad of that. Tell me if I’m wrong but you seem to be part of the minority over there. (being sane)
Could you tell me roughly what % of your christian comunity are (radical,fundamentalist’s who want to impose their radical ideals and beliefs on the whole country)
All sounds a bit Taliban-ish?
Seems they have too much power, seems they have bush in their pockets. Church and state should never entwine.
That to me spells Fundamentalist government(not good)
A good christian heart would not force their ideals on others,they are more likely to serve the people in any way they can offering assistance to those in need.
Some may appreciate their efforts and want to be more like them.-Ridicule and condemnation isn’t the way to go- they’ll never change hearts and minds that way.
Maybe they know that what they ask is ridiculous, so try to impose their will. Any way you should be safe, you have your constitution to protect your rights, unless Bush tears it up that is.
He’s like a puppet on a string. I think if there were a god he would want people to find Humanity.
True humanity can only be achieved by concidering others/caring about others as much as,if not more than yourself.
Then and only then could we call ourselves a -Civilisation-
Why do you copy and paste almost the exact same response all over the Internet?
http://pandagon.net/2006/09/13/nathan-tabor-continues-to-mourn-for-all-the-thwarted-sperm/#comment-192509
http://www.blogdenovo.org/mt/mt-chatterbox.cgi?entry_id=1417#comment-182717
http://lossofgod.com/2006/08/calling-abortion-murder-is-insult-to.html#c115815107983188318
http://benslaw.blogspot.com/2006/09/my-thoughts-on-abortion.html#115819116873079639
http://www.teambio.org/2006/08/abortion-and-the-civilized-state/#comment-59260
Oh, that was courtesey of the wife I believe, yet no credit is given. Typical.
Actually, he was on Countdown as the Worst Person in the World last week. I didn’t feel compelled to talk about it until I read that he was only being charged with 2nd degree arson.
Oh, sure, so it’s a coincidence that I e-mailed you that link last night. I at least led you to learn about his charge, right?
It is a possibility we are looking into at this time. Right now, we really just want to keep our options open and not get tied down to any one theory. As soon as new developments occur, we will bring them to your attention. Thank you.
@ ausblog
If My mother had aborted me as a fetus I really wouldn’t have cared less. Which is rather logical because I wouldn’t be here to care. I presume you are a pacifist? Or are you another hypocrit “crying” about a lump of cells without any conscience but saying it’s ok when people are bombed and shot and mistreated?
The way things look lately with all the warloving idiots out there I allmost wish I would not have been born.
how can you support a war where many innocents are being killed, yet justify bombing a clinic, where just as many innocents exist? Oh, right, they are evil b/c they aren’t bible thumpers
@ ausblog
This isn’t a “what if” for me. My mother DID have an abortion. Several years before she even met my father. If she didn’t, her life would have turned out quite differently, and I would never have existed. My children would never have existed. My (husband or wife) would have been married to someone else. I do consider myself lucky. I’m lucky that my mother had the freedom of choice to wait until she was READY and WILLING to have a child and raise that child in a happy and welcome enviornment.
This happened in Davenport.
Get your facts straight.
Thanks. Got the cities mixed up with the name of the paper.
Ummm… this did not happen…
dousing his car in gasoline and driving it through the wall of the Edgerton Women’s Health Center.
He drove his car into the front of the clinic and then (upon seeing that it did not burst into flames) poured gasoline into the car and ignited it. The clinic’s sprinkler system quickly extinguished the blaze.
I have no problem at all with this idiot being tried as a terrorist. I hope he fucking disappears.
I’m actually on your side, but if you’re going to talk about this stuff, at least get your simple facts straight… You’re as misdirected as the guy behind the wheel. This happened about 9 blocks from where I live, in Davenport.
Hey -I’m not being a hardass -I like your blog.
Keep up the good work.
A little criticism helps to grease the wheels -okay?
It’s cool. I’m just going off what was reported in the media. If you’re watching the TO thing today, you can see how little they do to check their facts. I don’t have their resources, so I am at their mercy.
Do you have a link to a story that explains what really happened? I’d like to fix it if you can show me a source.
Here’s one that has a little more data.
link
pretty close to what I said, but I’ll change it to reflect this info
It’s all good -I’m at work, so I can’t give you the links just now, but I will try to send you something when I get home. You’ve got a dynamite blog and nice, strong opinions. Thanks for letting me chime in… regardless of my bitching about details, you make some really good points.
FdPs
There are a lot of things at play. One is a fundamentalist movement in Iowa, which is quite a scary thing. At least most Iowans have the sense to look at people who are far too extreme and voice their opinions. In the early 1990s, a cross burning in Dubuque caused an uproar throughout the state. “The KKK in Iowa, oh no, not in my state,” was the reaction.
I hope this is the same case. Although Iowa was a red state in the last election it was blue for many years, showing a vast number of moderates, so I hope this holds true and no one will stand for this.
As far as the case of 2nd degree arson, I think that is fair, but I think added charges of 1st degree attempted murder are in order (unless this was done after hours) because of the possibility it could have killed someone.
Too bad this guy didn’t light the match and die. Too bad his mother didn’t abort him. But this is what we have to live with now.
The whole point that this is terrorism is ridiculous. It is like charging someone with a hate crime. If we couch anything the right way we can make it sound like murder, terror or a hate crime … the end result is the same so what’s the difference? As long as there is just and equal punishment. In this case, there may not be that. Without the facts it’s hard to judge, but there is some reason other charges haven’t been brought against him. Or they haven’t been brought just yet as they are exploring the case further and could end up charging him with a greater crime. I hope so.
I don’t see anywhere where in the posting where this guy was a christian, though you may assume by his name. He could be doing it for completely unrelated reasons, such as his wife/girlfriend had an abortion and he was upset. I know I would be too. But as far as this being about God, He is one in the same from Judaism to Christianity to Islam. He is the same God of the Sunni and Shia and they are killing each other.
Guantanamo inmates are not the “poor things” as they have been made out to be. Many of them are guilty of being enemy combatants. Americans who have fought our troops are traitors and deserve a traitors fate. Enemy combatants should be held as POWs. But those being held were not just swooped up unjustly for being Islamic, there was a reason they were picked up. They defile troops guarding them, throw feces and other bodily fluids, scratch, gouge, and then cry that they are being treated badly as their Al Qaeda field manual says to do when captured. And those who have been returned to their countries, it doesn’t mean they are not guilty, but maybe not enough evidence to convict (though that’s another issue at hand).
I couldn’t see my life without my daughter, but as a man, I have no right to decide. I should have no right no matter how much I want to have one because having that right gives me the power to control another person. I believe in a woman’s right to choose. I believe in safe medical practices. I also believe that billions of cells are murdered throughout my body everyday by other cells. Sometimes T-cells will kill them. Should I be infected with AIDS to stop those T-cells from committing murder? Yes, sometimes extremes are used to prove an arguments weakness, such as a cluster of cells. Another one, more to the point is, should a mother be charged with murder for having an abortion? Then should she be charged with manslaughter if she miscarries? There is no answer, just law.
[…] Far from being a specifically Muslim problem, religious extremism is found in both Judaism, which had the violent Zionist movement pre-World War II, and Christianity, which had the German Nazis, among many other hate groups. The latest act by a Christian terrorist, as reported here, was a failed car bombing (yes, they’re not just for Iraqis anymore) in Iowa. Some of those that work forces, are the same the burn crosses. […]
I assumed he was a Christian because one of the links I posted refered to him as one (and because every single other abortion clinic bomber I know of has been a Christian). Maybe he is, maybe he isn’t. I’m just going with what was reported. Either way, if he were a Muslim, he would be in Cuba (or some secret prison in Syria) right now
Is the guy a terrorist?
Yes - he tried to scare/terrorize other people into believing what he believes by destroying property, and potentially severly injuring/killing people involved.
Should he be tried as a terrorist?
Yes - The crime fits, and it is not against any one person, but against every person who values freedom of any kind.
Do all terrorist get unjustly placed in unnamed prisions with they key thrown away, “dissappearing” if you will?
No - Many/most terrorists are tried publicly and then sentanced to a prison term in international prison facilites, etc.
Are all terrorists the same?
No - When you are a known group specilizing in terrorism, and one of your members gets caught, do you think we(meaning whoever catches them, not just the USA) should just put them before trial and let his fate send him off?
You Decide - the purpose of hiding them away in secret prisons is revealed in our desire to use them to bring the others in their organization to light. With this incident, I don’t see this man working for any particular Christian terrorist group, and therefore, no need to interrogate him on who he may work for, and how to uproot them. He’s insane, worked alone, and is being charged for the crimes he committed. If a terrorist attempts to blow up a building and he acts alone, he’s charged with attempting to blow up a building, not “Terrorism” in general, which is meaningless. The charges brought forth here are based on that fact, and while they may be extremely lenient for the crime, they fit with his attempts and are valid charges. Terrorism is not a real charge, but an excuse that is used for us to interrogate people of such organizations in order to get intel that will help us remove these dangerous organizations.
Is it possible that this man is a part of some fundamentalist organization?
Yes, its possible, but rather unlikely looking at the story - not to mention the fact that this organization is probably extremely small at that compared to the many terrorist factions around the globe that incite terror on a grand scale. To compare the two is to compare apples to oranges.
The fact that he’s a Christian gives all Christians a bad name, and is referenced as such. Just like the fact that the terrorist factions we battle in the Middle East are mostly Muslim in origin gives Muslims a bad name. You want to state that because he’s a Christian he’s getting off easy? If he had been jewish he’d have been picked up on the same charges. The real fact of the matter is that fundamentalist Christians are a much smaller group than you care to admit, and a majority of Christians, while sharing varying views on issues such as abortion, etc., are not in such a category, and you insult all Christians to lump them all into one big majority of Fundamentalists. I’ve been many places, and visited many, many churches of all kinds and religions from Buddhists, to Muslims, to Roman Catholic, to Souther Baptist, etc. 95% of the places I’ve been would not be classified as fundamentalist to their religion and all have varying degrees of belief.
Russia was offically atheist when they killed millions of their own and sent them into the Gulags. This torture, imprisonment and enslavement system ran strong for over 70 years! Estimates are that 15 to 20 million went through this system… I don’t know if any religious group in history can top that over such a short period of time.
Khmer Rouge was another extremist communist group, officially atheist, and they extended their hate list to include Chistians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and especially anyone with any degree of education or business success…. if you wore glasses you were considered an intellectual worthy of death. They successfully tortured and killed anywhere from 250,000 to 1.5 million people depending on whose estimates you believe
Hmmm… must not be a religious problem… must be a people problem… When people of what ever bent have no one to answer to in this life and think that the best way to achieve their goals is through violence, terrorism, torture, etc. it leads to harm and death of others. When these people and this type of thinking gets into a place of power that is unchecked, it leads to large numbers of deaths.
In this country we have goofy extemist people just like everywhere else… but what we also have is strong law enforcement that goes after these flakes and we have a system of checks and balances, i.e. a 3 branch government system + a free press as a 4th branch that work to stop anyone person or group from getting into the uncheck power position. It isn’t perfect… but it works better than most.
The great thing about abortion is the liberals who support and practice it are becoming a diminishing population. They are thankfully becoming victims of the principle of ’survival of the fittest.’
Keep it up, guys. Keep killing yourselves off. Muslims blow each other up, but at least they reproduce to replenish the population.
front doors and walls, gassoline (sic) before and after…. Did you even read the article before parroting your blogger friends’ rants? Dare I say that 10 years in jail would be more than enough punishment for breaking a glass door without hurting anyone?
uh, aussie– knock it off. emotional manipulation does not equal rationale.
i can’t believe you think fewer women would get pregnant if abortion wasn’t available. do you think women sleep around without protection, telling themselves not to worry, they can just get an abortion later?
and why don’t you think about the reality of your arguments before you argue them? do you realize the populations in this world who have no form of birth control or abortion available, yet just can’t seem to stop having babies?
there is nothing easy about abortion.
I shudder to think what this guy is going to do with a second chance and a better plan. Religious extremist are probaly the most retarded people on this planet, to think you can get into heaven by killing innocent people is insane.
Christianity is responsible for killing way more kids and ruining way more families then all the abortion clinics on this planet put together. The stigma that they put on birth controll and ignorant promotion of abstinence as the only preventable measure allowed has allowed A.I.D.S to flourish in third world countrys and caused more abortion’s. ausblog said “Did you know you can get an implant that is safe, 99.9% effective, and lasts for three years?” no. No one knows that because it isn’t true they don’t protect against S.T.D’s and here’s a quick rundown of there side effects via this site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormonal_contraception “weight gain, loss of libido, hair loss, mood swings, bleeding between periods, nausea, breast tenderness, headaches, mastalgia, depression, ovarian cysts, constant bleeding (metrorrhagia), panic attacks, muscle pain, heart palpitations, pain during sex, acne, abdominal cramps, dizziness, weakness or fatigue, leg cramps, nausea, vaginal discharge or irritation, bloating, swelling of the hands or feet, backache,insomnia, pelvic pain, rash, hot flashes,joint pain, convulsions, jaundice, urinary tract infections, and allergic reactions.” yeah i know completly safe.
If Christianity really cared about preventing abortion’s something like this would have never happened http://bitingbeaver.blogspot.com/2006/09/morality-clauses-ec-and-broken-condoms.html. It’s pathetic and if was that girl i would have sued everyone responsible for the unwanted birth for child support.
“When your mother first learned she was carrying you, she may have considered […] to terminate? Would that have been OK? You would not exist”
If I never existed, then I never cared.
Sounds painless to me, so I fail to see the big concern.
Seems like we’re sliding into the dark ages.
Inquisition anyone?
GWN: his intent was not to just break a glass door.
The intent is to scare all abortion clinics into closing. Like scaring all gays to hide in a closet. Like scaring all blacks or jews from walking the street.
The target is not one person/object, the real target is to intimidate a legal minority. That makes it a hate crime, or these days, terrorism. This is why the punishment should be far more than 10 years.
Dustin:
Better hope they catch you in the earlier trimesters. Otherwise, they either vacuum you through a shredder or puncture your skull and drain your brains out.
Yeah, painless.
Phil:
The feminist movement supports abortion so (among other reasons) women can be ‘empowered’ to have consequence-free sex like men. I don’t see why women would want to imitate such ‘men’ who are really selfish pigs who respect neither life, women, nor themselves. But many women see this false freedom and choose to live the same way.
I fell down the stairs when I was a toddler. Don’t remember it at all.
Painless.
Thinking about it, I don’t remember anything until somewhere past the 15th trimester. So that sounds like a reasonable window to me.
Just something for those who are pro-life but think that abortion should be illegal except in cases of rape and incest:
What you are really saying is that a fetus is a baby UNLESS the father is an asshole.
(thanks to comedian Doug Stanhope http://www.dougstanhope.com for that…no I’m not him but he makes a damn good point)
2nd degree arson is ridiculous. This guy is trying to control people through intimidation. He destroyed property and could have killed someone. It does not matter what his religion is, he should not be getting off this easily.
I’m a mother and I support a woman’s right to choose. I know the risks and sacrifice a woman endures in becoming a mother, and I don’t think any woman should have to go through that if she does not want to. The rights of the fetus simply do not trump the rights of the woman. It’s her body. I hate to put it this way, but fetuses are parasites by definition. It’s very noble what women do in pregnancy and childbirth. They sacrifice for another person. But if a woman doesn’t want to make that sacrifice or risk her own life and health, she should not have to.
A fetus is NOT a parasite - here is the definition:
par‧a‧site  /ˈpærəˌsaɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[par-uh-sahyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. an organism that lives on or in an organism of another species, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.
2. a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others.
3. (in ancient Greece) a person who received free meals in return for amusing or impudent conversation, flattering remarks, etc.
Note: if you want to support the fact that it is a parasite by the 2nd or 3rd definitions, you’re going by a bit of a stretch and trying to twist the interpretation of the word. You want people to read your statement as, “a fetus is a parasite, just like a flea, or a tick, etc.” instead of, “a fetus is a person who lives off the hospitality of others” In general this is used to refer to someone who willfully takes advantages of others because they’re too lazy to take care of themselves. By this same definition, a coma patient is a parasite, just like a lazy 42-year-old man who lives with his parents, has no job, and contributes nothing to anyone else’s well-being.
Notice that in the first definition, a parasite is an organism that on or in an organism of ANOTHER SPECIES. Think of some other definition for insulting a fetus other than parasite, because the shoe doesn’t fit.
The dictionary is not the law, it is a rough reflection of the use of language. But you would have had a lot of use with that on BBSes back in 1984.
Sara said, “Fetuses are parasites by definition” Huh?
Rights are rights by definition of law. Under current US law it is legal to have an abortion and by definition of US law, the fetus has less rights. If people for religious or other reasons decide to elevate the rights of a fetus in the US they do it by changing the laws of the US… that is what the fight is is about and is the realm in which it should stay.
In the US, unborn bald eagles have rights by definition of law which is a decision made by people and law makers. If that does not agree with your personal beliefs or religion… then you try to change that law.
Personal morality goes with what every religion or philosophy you follow… which are usually codified in a set of laws that you personally are responsible to follow and with your conscience, a god or karma to answer to. When people get together, they decide that some issues of morality are important enough to codify into the law of the land, e.g. murder, theft, etc… all issues of morality codified into public law…. yes you CAN legislate morality… we have always done that… and changed laws as views on morality changed.
In both cases, public and private morality, there are laws and someone to answer to for them even if it is only your own conscience.
If and when the consensus of the US population is such that abortion is considered again, morally unacceptable, the public law will change back to what it used to be… if the consensus does not go that way… public law will remain to have abortion legal
People get pissed off when they have to obey a law that does not line up with there religion or personal morality…. or when someone else is able to get away with doing things that is beyond what is allowed in their system of personal morality… it cuts both ways…
So I guess if you want to get the law changed… you get the consensus changed. In my experience you get consensus through common religion, philosophy, education or experience…. but you get rights by definition of law… Bible rights (and wrongs) come from Bible law and US rights (and wrongs) come from US law….
A fetus has rights in the US based on what we give it by law. In the sight of the christian god, a fetus has rights according to bible law. In the sight of you personally, the fetus has rights according to whatever law you subscribe to or which law gives more rights.
Calling a fetus a parasite does not do much for me as an arguement or a consensus builder.
DB: It’s not a religious problem or a people problem, it’s a faith problem
My point in that statement was that the word is being used in that form to mislead people into associating things that are actually quite different. While you are correct in the fact that the dictionary is not law, you are also correct in the fact that it represents a reflection of the use of the language. A misuse of the language in order to bring about unequivocal associations is still a misuse of the language. On top of that, the statement was that “fetuses are parasites by definition” which in fact would refer me to the definition of parasite. They are in fact, not parasites by definition. I’m just pointing out that this comment invalidates itself. Her other points are not invalidated by my removal of its parasitical status, so I don’t see much of a problem with my statment other than the fact that it might remove a bit of the strength behind her words.
Okay, so drop the parasite part. My point is that a woman shouldn’t be forced by law, fear or anything to use her body for the benefit of another. What the abortion debate boils down to is whose rights come first. I would put the rights of a teenage girl or adult woman before those of a fetus. A pregnancy can cost a woman her job, social standing, relationships, health or even life. If a woman does not want to risk those things, she should not have to, not even for her fetus. And nobody else should be trying to force a woman to do that. It’s a personal matter that is no one else’s business.
[…] Christian terrorist attempts car-bombing in Iowa Derlei Nachrichten erreichen die deutsche Presse ja schon mal gar nicht. Die amerikanische allerdings wohl auch kaum. (tags: gottesbilder terror christentum abtreibung religion usa) […]
The opposing faction would say that the woman had the choice to get pregnant to begin with - if we are boiling things down to their basics here. Obviously we can get into the hardcore aspects of both sides which would state that without a doubt abortion is always wrong, or without a doubt abortion is always right. When we talk about the rights of the pregnant woman over the rights of her fetus, we ignore the fact that she made the choice to get pregnant in the first place. Before you get all uppity about that statement, let me clarify a bit. A significant portion of aborted pregnancies are from irresponsibility, not someone who genuinely attempted to avoid pregnancy. There are countless forms of birth control from a contraceptive pill, to a condom, etc. There are even pills for after a sexual encounter that a woman can take to prevent a pregnancy from taking place, and they are 99% effective. At the moment, some of these things can be hard to come by, but they are becoming more and more readily available as some are even becoming over the counter. This takes away a significant portion of the excuse that they got pregnant by accident. They had a choice to attempt to prevent the pregnancy and chose to ignore the options. That being said, of course there is the exception to that of rape - although the after the fact contraceptive can alleviate that as much as possible, and the exception of the rare few that will get past any and all blockades - the 1%ers you could somewhat call them. The 1%ers used a suggested form or even multiple forms of birth control and still got pregnant. At that point it was out of their control. In the majority of cases, it could be debated that the women who choose to bypass their options to stop the pregnancy before it happens, give up their rights in favor of the fetus’ rights. It could be debated that they chose to get pregnant because they chose not to do anything about it. Would you argue that the woman’s rights come first after the baby has been born? Is it ok for a woman to say, “My social standing relationships, and job have been adversly affected by this baby, so I’ll leave it in a dumpster.”? If that isn’t right, then when does that change come about? Its a tough question, and so many people want to hit it with their absolutes. “I am right and you are wrong. A woman has her rights. The fetus has its rights.” Its not even that simple even when its boiled down to its roots. You can say what you want, but each of our opinions won’t change the truth that this debate is far from simple and the answer is far from simple as well.
My personal belief is that no one should have the right to use the laws of the land to impose their religious belief on me. As far as the abortion issue I just wonder why are the same people that are pro-life not having huge rallies to help single mothers and young women get access to 1. Financial help if needed 2)Info and availbility of prevention and health care info
Pro-lifers are usually on the Republican side which wants to cut welfare and not provide prevention methods to young people BESIDES abstinence. Not all young people have parents that will educate them about this. The way to prevent abortion is to prevent the reasons for it. And the main reason is usually that the girl doesn’t have options, doesn’t feel she will have the resources she needs to keep a child or make it through a preganancy. And yes I’m aware of adoption but how is that an option for a girl who has to hide a pregnancy from family and friends who might look down on her. This is a desperate person who doesn’t wants to hide her pregancy. Prevent that and you’ll prevent most abortions.
[…] I don’t want to be the guy that sees terrorism everywhere, but the NY Post’s response to a faux anthrax-letter sent to Keith Olbermann is beyond shameful. This is their comment on the incident: Keith Olbermann flipped out when he opened his home mail yesterday. The acerbic host of “Countdown with Keith Olbermann” was terrified when he opened a suspicious-looking letter with a California postmark and a batch of white powder poured out. A note inside warned Olbermann, who’s a frequent critic of President Bush’s policies, that it was payback for some of his on-air shtick. The caustic commentator panicked and frantically called 911 at about 12:30 a.m., sources told The Post’s Philip Messing. An NYPD HazMat unit rushed to Olbermann’s pad on Central Park South, but preliminary tests indicated the substance was harmless soap powder. However, that wasn’t enough to satisfy Olbermann, who insisted on a checkup. He asked to be taken to St. Luke’s Hospital, where doctors looked him over and sent him home. Whether they gave him a lollipop on the way out isn’t known. Olbermann had no comment. […]
[…] Christian terrorist attempts car-bombing in Iowa » The Allen Almanac. a comment on how the punishment of a brown person saying “car bomb” could be harsher than a white person using a car bomb. […]
How does one person count as being a terrorist?
This “comment” of yours is so obviously a personal crusade, nay call it a single-minded approach - fine, that’s your right and your belief. However, under your perceived opinion of what a terrorist is then it makes you one too. Radical yes, terrorist no.
Oh and Stokes I’m guessing you don’t really understand but you’re talking about religion, not Christianity. Religion has killed millions, the occasional fruit loop who claims they are Christian has killed as well but not in huge numbers.
As to flourishing AIDS being down to Christianity as well then that is just ridiculous. You’re blaming an entire belief system on one part of it and that would be the Roman Catholics. Even then I’d argue that you are wrong.
AIDS started and spread endemically in Africa which by and large is NOT a Roman Catholic country. So how does that fit your narrow view of the world?
I could go on but I don’t have a drum to beat and only stumbled here by accident.
“How does one person count as being a terrorist?”
How does one person count as being a Christian?
How does one person count as being a plumber?
How does one person count as being a Communist?
How does one person count as being a scientist?
How does one person count as being a driving instructor?
How does one person count as being a Republican?
and finally
How does one person count as being a moron?
A terrorist is someone that uses fear as a weapon with the intention of intimidation. This person obviously intended to intimidate people who perform abortions by making them feel unsafe at their workplace. However, I don’t see how I am using fear as a weapon.
I wonder, what exactly is your definition of a terrorist?
In what uneducated fantasy land does a 6 week old clump of cells have a thumb? As there is no pro-abortion camp the “pro-life” camp is only preaching to the choir, as they love to do. If they really wanted to lower abortion rates they would go out and vote for people who would not squander MILLIONS of taxpayer dollars on abstinence education that does nothing for our society but create young people who haven’t the slightest idea about how their reproductive systems function. In fact, our abortion rate is on the increase since implementing such asinine “education” programs. Don’t forget–we are paying people to actually teach nothing–we could do that for free! Stop paying lip service to “Life” and get out there and support it! Illegal abortions kill 2 people not just one.
Personally, I don’t give a hoot about women getting abortions. Hey, it’s THEIR right. Besides, the Christian religion — of which I’m a member — has a history of basically forbidding birth control under assorted reasons, right around the time it decided that all women were to be baby making slaves to the husband, who had all the rights. (Don’t forget the Pope, ages ago, who, observing that the various kings in his land were spending a lot of time having their Knights battle each other, decided to channel all of that energy from tearing up the land to tearing up other nations by creating the Crusades.)
Not to mention that no pro-life group has exactly initiated any program to pay the bills for an expectant mother who doesn’t want the child or to make arrangements for its’ care after birth.
I am concerned about acts of terrorism. ANY terrorism. Personally, when some religious fanatic of any religion decides to attempt to kill me or mine because of his warped beliefs, I pretty much don’t want him back on the streets. I also pretty much don’t care if he gets the stuffing beaten out of him by interrogators, especially since we lost 3000 innocents on 9/11 in the second attack on US soil in history. At least Japan attacked a MILITARY base during a well established, global war and NOT out of religious reasons.
This guy tried this before. As far as I’m concerned, his chances are up. He needs to go to jail forever. His type of fanaticism is not exactly different from Muslim Jihad. Funny how ‘religions of peace’ tend to get fanatically bloody at the urgings of leaders who have an obsessive desire to force their own personal beliefs on ‘the flock.’ (See the Iyatolla Kholmani.) (Pardon the spelling.)
If people can be led like sheep in banning something like smoking, pretty much based on the desires of ex-smokers who have the urge but can’t smoke, so no one can and tramp over the Bill of Rights and others, in the face of outrageous gas prices, continue to buy gas guzzling status vehicles, ignoring the fact that they’re feeding the monster, then it isn’t unexpected that religious leaders can screw up religion. Out of this screwing up comes fanatics and we get terrorists.
Uh, BTW, the Crusaders were basically terrorists.
Not everybody is Christian, so if they choose to have an abortion, then it is their right. BTW, the Bible mentions stoning an adulteress to death. Today, we consider that cruel and unusual punishment. That indicates that not only have times changed, but folks understand that the religious texts were written by fallible men, often influenced by the laws of their own land and personal beliefs.
Oh, yeah. Christians had no problem in the last couple of centuries in beating their children half to death as ‘just punishment’ for not following whatever Christian sect’s rules the parents believed in. Don’t forget the Shakers, who were so against sex that they bore no children, kept men and women separated, except for meals and who died out because of their beliefs. The Amish ban their children who choose to live in the modern world — which means basically that they are disowned.
Christians can and have been terrorists for centuries. We just don’t like to be told that.
Good note Rik01,
I dont know how I can put it better myself.
People now aday are way to freaking quick to tell others what is right an wrong based on THEIR beliefs, and try to force them upon the world.
Expectent mothers who are considering abortion are told by these religious nuts not to and that its against god and they are murderers and they blow up clinics and try to pass laws to stop them, as if god gave these nuts the power or right to force their beliefs on others, and stated YOU “crazy person you love me so you are perfect, manipulate all I have said to force others to thing like you!”.
What is a woman to do if she is unable to take care of the child, dosnt want it (which results in a neglected child who usually gorws up unmoral and criminal per say, not always) , or a hundred other reason why she should not have it or dosnt want to. If a woman dosnt want to be a mother or have more children its her choice.
We already have enough parents that wanted kids but SHOULDNT have had them out there.
These nuts come back and say “well they shouldnt of had sex” …not all women getting abortions are sluts just sleeping around and using abortion as a safety net some are married but they just cant take on a child or even another one if they already have some.
These freaks say, “its not my problem its wrong by god and she should not do it”. Well feel free to have your opinion BUT if its “NOT YOUR PROBLEM” then dont become a problem for her with your prosicution and forcing your beliefs. Im sure as shit that she wasnt there tell you to abort your last child because you already have to many and are rasing them im poor conditions, nor was she telling you dont fixed to not have any more, thats mutilating your body BLAH BLAH BLAH.
Why must everyone try and force what they think on others, having opinions is fine, but unless something is directly effecting you or those around you. There is no need to force your opinion on others.
im not religious BUT if I recall god states we are all born with sin, and hence unperfect everyone of us. SO that being said NO ONE IS RIGHT ABOUT ANYTHING. We all have are own opinions on life and live by them and view what god or whoever says in our own way.
Stop thinking you are the one whos got it right, no one has.
If you can combine every religion on the planet into one, that makes all happy, then you have everything right and are perfect. Then come back and tell everyone how to live or what to do with their body!
And yes I cant spell well hahah, just backing up my point NO ONE is perfect.
WOW, you guys are being so mature about this, not one person has ruined this place yet.
First off there is a difference between global/national terrorism and acting in a way a terrorist would agant something you don’t believe in. This man thinking he would crash and burn a abortion clinic in the name of his GOD is not a terroristic act in the deffenition of what a terrorist is in the united states. He still believes in the USA, the constitution, his Church, his community - ect. Islamic terrorist only believe in Islam. They see the USA as enemy becuase we are not only MULTI religious - but we represent things that don;t even play into religion but they make part of their cause.
This Man is being properly charged becuase his act wasn’t agant the USA. He was not tring to scare every American. HE wasn’t even tring to scare the would-be clinics staff/customers - he was tring to disable the tool (office) where the acts that are aganst his religion are commited. Im sure he wasn;t looing to kill anyone - And becuase Catholics has some sane minds - even this person realized that setting himself ablaze would not be right for his cause.
SO again I re-itterate. The act was of a terrorist nature - but then again every wrongful act could be classified with some sort of terroristic overtones. If a Child trashes a school - was it a terroristic act - In a way yes - he was tring to scare the people at the school and cause chaos to prevent the instituation from running, but he is not a Terrorist because he still believes in his country and other things.
Radical Islamic Terrorist are truly F*(Ken Crazy - they feel if you are not Islamic You must die. They feel that even Islamic people that enjoy the GOVERNMENT OF THE USE - THE FREEDOMS OF THE USA - THE LUXURIES of the USA should Die too becuase - unless a Islamic person lives the way a islamic person lived years before Modern Marvels - there is some sort of curruption or sin. If this is the case 0 we would all be living in 1200AD times still. These People better learn to intergrate and learn to stop bing Militant - That will just lead to their extinction.
Alright, I want to make one distiction for all the stupid people which may exist here, or might one day comment. #1. Believing in GOD does NOT make you a christian. It makes you a THEIST. What makes you a Christian is believing in and accepting CHRIST JESUS as your lord. Hince “CHRIST-IAN”. Like CANAD-IAN is of Canada, CHRISTIAN Means OF CHRIST. #2 A real christian is suppose to do this, and it says it time and time and TIME AGAIN IN THE BIBLE. Tell the news. Then its up to the person to choose. If they say no, then wipe the dust from your feet and depart. In other words tell them, then let um be. That man in no way is a Christian. In fact, most people in this country ~91% I believe~ claim to be Christian. However, most don’t even know what a christian is. “oh I believe in God!” dosen’t make you a christian. Heck, even “OH i believe in Jesus” dosen’t make you a Christian. But even these stupid people don’t excuse the stupid people ~a few which have commented already~ who assume they know what a Christian is, without doing any research. Same goes for judging any other religion or subject. Get your facts straight. Oh yes. And If I am not mistaken, a fundamentalist is a christian who believes in the fundamentals of the faith. The fundamentals are thusly. “Repent of sins and accept Jesus as your savior, give others the CHOICE to do the same, leave them be if they decide otherwise.” Again, IF I am not mistaken. I need to do more research myself but you should think about that. No one is helping their cause if they make enemys of the REAL Christians, who are peace loving, non combative people. I am utterly sick of morons that just listen to someone who stands up there on a podium and thinks hes God’s advocate. READ THE NEW TESTIMENT FOR SMEGS SAKE! And you know what? Anyone who jumps to these conclusions are just as bad as the sheep that are led by that person. Know why? Because your listening to him and believing him. Your just beliving that what he says is what the bible says, and what christians are like. Your just as bad, if you don’t do your own research. Read the bible if you want to bitch at christians. Namely the New testiment, since the old is just a history book.
OK, Tumble Weed, basically humans suck. Anyone with brains knows that.
I post a lot on FARK.com and repeatedly point out that humans are idiots.
Never said I had it right, but I don’t go around bombing buildings because I figure they offend my religion or I’m rescuing their souls. History studies taught me that, basically, the three major religions all sprang from one source, which is interesting, because now they don’t exactly get along with each other. (Christianity and Islam came from Judaism.)
I rant because it irritates me that folks can profess to be ‘good Christians’ and make sure that they KNOW they’re holier than I and then go on to be ruthless, career ruining businessmen, clinic bombers, suppressors of Civil Rights, political liars and schemers, intensely racist and find little problem with forcing their beliefs on everyone else. Looking Eastward, it’s funny to spot a ‘Religion of Peace’ which has no problem with the leaders grabbing all of the money and power, suppressing education, individual thought and brutally enforcing religious law while making the majority of the believers dress and live as they did about 2000 years ago. (If you studied the Muslim religion, you’d know that they even are told exactly how to go to the toilet. Hitler could not have done better creating a system designed to control a people.)
I have read the science fiction of Ron L. Hubbard. He was a mediocre writer, in my opinion. However, he took an idea dreamed up in his works, pushed it on the (ignorant) public as Dianetics and wound up with Scientology. What astounds me is that so many intelligent folks flock to what is a genuinely artificial religion. Then again, I’ve seen folks flock to ‘false prophets’ like at Waco and Jonestown. (David Koresh convinced folks he was the Son of God. Then he had sex with their wives and small girls and amassed enough weaponry to start a small war. Plus, he had a mass suicide plan in place — which he initiated when the law showed up, not caring whether or not everyone wanted to be burned to death.) Charles Manson managed to bamboozle a small group to such a degree that they were willing to threaten a President after their group slaughtered a movie star and her friends in an attempt to start a race war.
I just want folks to think instead of blindly following a charismatic leader(s). The world is progressing and so must the religions. If Christians had followed the doctrine of the Powerful Church ages ago, we’d still believe that the Earth was the center of the universe, a vast amount of technology would have been banned, we’d be walking around wearing robes, doing nothing to improve our environment and probably at war with every other religion. I doubt if we’d have cars, be in space, have the Internet or the many, many lifesaving technologies we have today.
Folks CAN do something about it.
You included.
Look at the idiocy over the ‘Theory of Creation.’ Both sides are right, but one side is clinging to a story that is thousands of years old. They can’t grasp the concept that the Theory was probably made up for a people who had no concept of random mutation, genetics, genetic variables, probably would never go more than 20 miles from the places of their birth, most couldn’t read or count and pretty much had absolutely no concept of how their own bodies functioned. So, it was a simplified tale designed for their easy grasp. They would absolutely not have understood evolution — yet the Creation gives them a starting point.
Even religious scholars have agreed that the Bible talks in generalities in many areas, that you can interpret scriptures many ways and that it even has been edited. In some places it seems to contradict itself. The Old Testament is written as if by a bunch of crabby, old religious fanatical men, with a whole lot of stern stuff, which if you didn’t follow it, you’d be severely punished. (Kinda scary, really.) The New Testament is different, gentler and kinder, but still pretty strict.
The bible is pretty hard to read from cover to cover.
I probably don’t have it right. However, I rant and rave for folks to use their heads, observe the flaws in the religion, am smart enough to know that when ‘inspired men’ write religious texts, that they running a lot of their own personal opinions which were formed in conditions 2000 years ago.
I just figure I have it better. Stupidity annoys me. God gave us brains for a reason — to use them. (I get about hysterical whenever I come across those sects that reject modern medicine. God gave us the brains to learn and to create technology to help ourselves. Not to stagnate — kind of like that parable where that guy hid money under stones instead of improving himself with it.)
Anyone who has studied history — or even actually READ the National Geographic Magazines — can find it obvious how certain restrictions worked their way into religion — such as the man having all the power and the woman being expendable — by looking at the morals and societies of the distant past. (They tended to be male oriented.)
I’ll leave you with this cool observation, which I got from a Lay minister, who also was a Law Enforcement Officer, as we talked one day on the side of the road.
In his opinion, Christians shall be judged according to how they followed their religious beliefs when they die. Those who were not Christians shall be judged according to how they followed the laws and ideals of their own religions. Those who are not religious at all shall be judged according to how well they followed the rules of their society.
Quite a remarkable observation, don’t you think? Ahead of his time, I would say.
I find that without evidence it is hard to make a strong case, as this article has. It’s mainly about the writer’s attitude to cause a stir-up just because we heard the poor guy claims to be a Christian. Reading a few articles up and not bothering caring for others, there’s no need to for another Christian to get angry at this writer. Blowing up is not going to convey having a relationship with God is all about. It’s rather important to understand each other’s feelings so we can work things out.
Normally, people have fallen away from Christ because of others leading them out the door. These things unfortunately happen as individuals play a huge role influening others.
There are moments Christians will defend their faiths and attackers denying the Bible’s prominence. Without even digesting it, there are no clever mentions they can possibly make to counter theological facts.
Many do like to call themselves Christians because of whatever appeal there is. Everyone has a belief system that builds as a work in progress. Without any trust in Christ, one is doomed to the road towards damnation. The actions will convey the heart’s attitude to Jesus’s death on the cross. Man is sinful and no way out but through Christ’s salvation.
Christians are obviously more worried about the suffering of those who haven’t had a chance to suffer ie aborted ones. If you really did care about people and you where on god’s side you would be horrified by the Christian terrorist, by the people being killed in Iraq to keep your petrol cheap and the fact that you voted in a thinly veiled Hitler into power.
Shame on you for worshiping the religion and abandoning the basic tenants of that religion. Isn’t it true that your god is supposed to be the judge? Is it not true that thou shalt not judge? Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, most of the disciples where homeless and un-employed. You are hopeless, hypocrites and damned, if there is a god – (which by the way is laughably naive) and he does return you guys are screwed, no really you are.
If there is anyone who is going to make it into heaven it’s the people who care about this world and the people in it, mostly those people are not religious they are just normal. They work for organisations that truly care about mankind like Amnesty and Greenpeace, you probably haven’t heard of these orgainsations because your country is full of barking mad people.
It worries me that you people are the most powerful nation on Earth, but then there always is a Rome isn’t there?
[…] Gee I wonder where they got that idea from? and gets charged with 2nd-degree arson. Last week, as you may (or may not), have heard, David Robert McMenemy attempted to destroy an abortion clinic in Davenport, IA by dousing his car in gasoline and driving it through the wall of the Edgerton Women’s Health Center. WTF!!! 2nd degree arson? His ass should be in Gitmo getting fucked with a plunger!!! Right George? Click these buttons to share this story:These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. […]
If you pro-lifers don’t like abortion, don’t get one. Your goddamn preaching is annoying the hell out of me, leave the rest of us alone.
Omg, that’s just crazy… I can’t believe something like that would happen in Iowa! What’s going on over there Iowa?!?!
Couple of late notes:
1) The first charge is just to get him stuck into the slammer. They then review the events and evidence and see what they can REALLY stick him with.
2) Terrorist? Yes — wannabe anyway. I say slam him hard to discourage others so we DON”T have a problem later. And I say that as a pro-lifer.
Mikl,
You obviously don’t get it. Christians are horrified by the Christian terrorist. They also spend a huge percent of their time and money on humanitarian causes, including working for companies such as greenpeace, etc. A true Christian doesn’t even consider himself better than anyone else, but humbles him/herself as a servant and takes care of the needs of others, even at the expense of themselves. This ONE guy was an idiot. The fact that he claims to be a Christian should have no bearing on the article anyway. Why not label him by his race, or his income status? How about his age, etc.? I guess the title, “Middle-Aged Terrorist Attempts Car Bombing in Iowa” just doesn’t ring like the orignal does it? He believes something that the Christian faith does not - that the ends justifies the means… that it is ok to harm someone else because they don’t believe the same thing you do. I find it rediculous that you would pick on the Christian faith because the people that make the notable news are the ones that are hurting others and being contradictory to the truth. Christians don’t rally behind the Iraq War because it saves them money on oil. What kind of idiot believes that anyway. Have you seen gas prices? They’ve constantly grown since this war began, and have only recently come down due to new discoveries and other reasons.
Rik01 is correct to be upset about people following charasmatic leaders blindly and causing destruction to others because of it, but too many people have the arguments skewed and blown out of proportion. People want to say that Creationism and Evolutionism clash, but the truth is, most people don’t know what either one is. Is it not possible that intelligent design created evolution to further its goal? Then of course their’s Evolution’s side which can be construed to be as outlandish as to say that we all evolved from one-celled organisms and came from the same roots, many, many, many years ago - or it can be construed to state that over time, things change/adapt to their environment in order to survive, etc. The difference being that the things that simply adapt change forms, but are still essentially the same essential pieces. The problem with everyone evolving from one-celled organisms is that if we did, there wouldn’t be any one-celled organisms anymore… The reason they evolve is to survive, which means they wouldn’t have survived if they hadn’t evolved. Where is the cave man today? Oh there aren’t any? Imagine that! But there are apes, and while they may share similar physical aspecs in some respects, there’s nothing that links us to them as far as anyone has been able to prove yet. On top of that, if you want to argue about how old the Earth is, go right ahead and waste your breath. Some will say its billions of years old and others will say its not. Some want to say that carbon dating will tell us how old things are, except for the fact that recent science has proven that carbon dating going back further than a few thousand years becomes useless because it is no longer accurate. Several published articles show how carbon dating on items that are known to have existed in certain times based on their markings, etc. are dating at times that they couldn’t exist based on the inaccuracy of carbon dating after a certain timeframe. Kinda throws your whole look off key not having a basis point in time to reference for things. Just because we teach it doesn’t make it right. How long did the world teach themselves that it was flat, and how long did the world go about thinking of itself as the center of the universe? Thats the reason why these things are theory and conjecture, and to cling to them like our lives depend on their outcome is foolish.
I just have one strong problem with your statement at the end there Rik01… Its not possible for each of us to be “judged according to how we follow our religous beliefs(etc.) when we die” because Christians believe that to follow Christ as your savior is the only way. Muslims believe the same thing - their way is the only way. There are many other religions that believe as this and there are some that believe all ways lead down the same path, etc… For someone to be judged as a Christian when they die, means that anyone who is not a Christian when they die will be judged as a non-Christian. You’re remarkable observation that you find to be ahead of our time, is worthless. I leave it at that.
Christians are statistically a minority as far as world wide numbers go. It is not impossible to fathom the idea that Christians could one day be told what they can and can not do by another ruling theological party in the US. Will they be prepared to accept what they are spoon fed? Should they? Other countries around the world have seen this type of thing happen and the US is not invulnerable to this scenario.
Ridiculous religious scenarios that have transpired in other countries… and were upheld by the courts: Women, one day you might be raped by your uncle, and not only can you not get an abortion, but you will also be forced to divorce your husband and marry your uncle. To top it off, you might have your genitals cout out so you can not derive pleasure from sex, only make babies.
As random as that all seemed…. my point is that people should have the right to do what they want with their bodies and religious choices without persecution. If you were suddenly the minority would you accept your fate?
Anon Says:
September 27th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
you arte right on
mabye people are getting these abortions becuase they arent ready and if they get them now and not have the kids then they will turn out to be better parents becuase they arent stuck with an unwated baby.
You want to make the battle for or against abortion based off of religious beliefs, but that is not the core of the situation here. Do people use their religious beliefs to make decisions regarding their stance on abortion? Yes, but its not about those who have religious beliefs against abortion vs. those who are for human rights. Its about one human’s rights vs. another human’s rights - and this is the core of the debate whether or not you believe the fetus could be considered to have human rights. Thus, human rights are at stake on both sides of the playing field. One side would have you believe that the mother’s rights outweigh the fetus’ rights(if they even have rights) whereas the other side would have you believe that the fetus’ rights(obviously they believe the fetus has rights) outwiegh the mother’s rights. Its not about the Christians vs. everyone who opposes them. If you make the debate about that, you’ve twisted it to mean something it doesn’t
[…] http://jdallen.org/news/christian-terrorist-attempts-car-bombing-in-iowa/ […]
There is no god.
sampler, the number of Christians in this world almost doubles any other religion. I don’t think that makes them a minority.
[…] http://jdallen.org/news/christian-terrorist-attempts-car-bombing-in-iowa/Â […]
Somehow in all the furor re: if this was a “Terrorist act”…..
71 of you (so far) have failed to consider not only WHAT was done, but WHEN it was done….
…at 4:30 in the morning…..which, we can safely assume, no one is in the clinic in the first place. And therefore we can also deduce that the guy’s intent was not to kill people. So I wouldn’t think this warrants the highest degree of punishment for a terrorist act. A terrorist act it is, I agree. But it’s not like blowing up the Murrah Building (And we did fry McVeigh despite his belief in the “right” superhero).
So put on your thinking caps there.
Who says you have to try to kill someone to be considered a terrorist?
McVeigh has executed because he was a murderer. If he had committed a smaller act that resulted in no deaths, he would not have been put to death, imo
[…] A ‘Christian suicide bomber’ attempted to blow up his car at an alleged abortion clinic on Tuesday by ramming his vehicle through the doors of the buidling and soaking it in gasoline. At the last moment, he decided not to light himself or his car on fire. Second degree arson is the charge. […]
I don’t know. You tell me. Surely wasn’t I.
“Who says you have to try to kill someone to be considered a terrorist?”
I was hoping your reading skills far exceed your logic, as I assumed you DID read the part where I said…..
“A terrorist act it is, I agree.”
So then what is your argument about then? How terrory it was?
Sadly, my fears have been substantiated. Your reading comprehension and logic are on par.
If you re-read my original post - perhaps 3 or 4 times if need be - you will see that the gist of my argument is that while this was a terrorist act, it was not a terrorist act of the highest order. Punishment should be meted out accordingly.
Nothing in life is black or white, my friend, but varying shades of gray.
And where did I ever say it was “of the highest order”?
And where did I claim YOU did???
In my initial post (God I hate doing this! Referring ONCE AGAIN to my original post!) I addressed the “71 previous posters”.
You know…it’s OK to scroll up and read previous posts. It really is. Honest.
“71 previous posters†includes me. Maybe you should try reading. Since your very first post here, you’ve done nothing but misrepresent my argument. I (or anyone else from what I can tell) never once made the claim that what he did was any where near as horrendous as what McVeigh or Bin Laden have done. Yet you come in here chiding everyone like we were planning on hanging him from the nearest tree. You have a point in that his intent was probably not to kill, but your criticism is placed outside of the frame of the rest of the conversation. This is the last thing I am going to say on the subject.
[…] and gets charged with 2nd-degree arson. Class C felonies are punishable by imprisonment of not more than 10 years and a fine between $1000 and $10,000 under Iowa law. If he were a Muslim he would be left indefinitely in Guantanamo Bay.read more | digg story […]
SO you are implying that you will take credit (or blame) for all 71? LOL LOL….
Did you claim equivalency to McVeigh or Bin Laden? No. And while you did not plan on hanging from the nearest tree, I’m sure you wouldn’t have travelled far to find a suitable one.
As it stands, I assume the guy is looking at 5-20 given the federal charges. Not enough? You tell me…..and why.
I think you tip your hand when you make reference to the “right make-believe superhero”, in that I infer you are then one of those completely insane people who find Christianity and Islam equivalently horrid. (Mind you, this is coming from someone who has not set foot inside a church for 20 years, aside from a wedding or funeral). I, too, think they are all make-believe superheroes. I just think some are less damaging to society at large than others.
Further, I am not so naive, to equate the actions of a stray nutbag prompted by a single issue (abortion) with the sizeable population of Islam willing to sacrifice their lives to either kill or convert any non-believers.
When you hear of the first Christian suicide bomber, please let me know. Until then, I suggest you get back to your computer games.
Maybe all terrorist acts should be taken very seriously. This guy was trying to scare women and doctors into following his personal moral code. I think that’s terrorism, whether he killed anyone or not. Hopefully, arson 2 was just a starting charge and they’ll treat this case more seriously than that when it’s all said and done.
Be very careful what you say there, because its not above any single person to take their own life into their hands for their own personal cause and condemn everyone else associated with it. Should there ever be a “Christian Suicide Bomber” you might want to take note that this act has nothing to do with true Christianity and associating it as such condemns people who condemn the act, just like your comments about a “sizeable population of Islam willing to sacrifice their lives to either kill or convert any non-believers” goes to show a disgust of Islam as a whole which would push blame towards any who follow Islam, even if they don’t believe such religious zealots represent them or their views as a whole. I have met many muslims who would claim that theirs is a religion of peace and that some have corrupted it for evil purposes. Isn’t it just as feasable that some could (and most definately have) corrupted Christianity for their own evil purposes as well? The fact that he is against abortion is his opinion, over which no one but he has control; however, the fact that he took matters into his own hands as a vigilante and terrorist has no bearing on Christianity, and his treatment is certainly not centered around his claim to Christianity. Its centered around his actions.
He attempted to damage and incapacitate a place he understood to be an abortion clinic at a time when it wouldn’t hurt anyone else. His attempt failed, and he was caught. His act was an act of terrorism as it was meant to scare abortion clinics into shutting down or quitting their abortion services for fear of the same kind of retribution. He committed the crime of attempting 2nd degree arson and should be tried on those charges.
If you feel like there should be charges for attempted terror tactics, then the law will need to be changed to allow for such. At the moment, I don’t know how you would go about prosecuting that particular aspect of his crime.
Unfortunately, some people think that his treatment would be different should he have been of another religion. Do you simply think that the United States is looking to police single acts of terror with no additional invovement the same way they would a terrorist group that works together, meaning that the capture of one out of the group does not put the whole group out of commission? They’re two different things and should be treated differently.
Now if you have a problem with the way we treat captured terrorists, then that is a completely different story, and doesn’t apply to this case, so make your point, but don’t correlate the two as they don’t match.
Great comment Sara! It takes into account the idea that it is important that this is a terrorist act, and that charges of this should be brought up in this case. The question I’m posing is that do we have a well drawn out law that could be used as a charge in this position, or will he have to be charged under some kind of “international terrorist law that applies to all terrorism everywhere”? Is it even right to consider this type of terrorism as bad as a type of terrorism that kills, or even kills on a grand scale? Those are questions we should be asking.
Caed jar: Ummmm…my first response is…..WTF??? My second is I think there are medications available for what ails you.
Not that what you had to say is wrong. It’s just that your tome seemed to orbit the earth several times and I had to try and hold on with all my strength to figure out where this was going.
Anyhow…..you made some good points….I think.
Beyond that, we all agree that this certainly was a terrorist act. That should be enough for one day.
Dear, Sara et al,
Please be informed, Mcmeney has been charged under Federal law which goes beyond Second degree arson.
If you bothered to read this blog on the first day this fact was reported.
FYI, from what I can see, I don’t think he was trying to physically hurt anyone since the event took place at 4:30am.
I am a Christian, and proud of it. I am ashamed that anyone would use “Christianity” as an excused to murder.
atheist, try backing up your numbers with some form of evidence. Even Christian organizations do not try to bloat the number of followers they have as high as you stated.
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
get a clue.
Yeah, I can just see Jesus driving a chariot and horses into a medical establishment during his day and attempting to set the place on fire with a torch. The so-called Christian who did this act does not represent Jesus in any way, shape, or form. “He who does not love does not know God for God is love.” “Give none offence, either to Jews, or to Gentiles, or to the church of God.” “Let he who is filthy still be filthy and he who is righteous still be righteous.” Who made this fool a judge over his fellow man? He did not do the right thing. He is a lost soul. And, furthermore, many of you people have no idea how to rescue him from the dark place where he now finds himself, and are glad he’s there. Jail is nothing compared to the dark night of the soul that must ecompass his very being. So, instead of simply being glad he’s going to jail, say a prayer for your enemy, if you have the guts.
Nate, religious fundamentalism DOES fuel violence. I’m sure that guy could quote the Bible to back up what he did if he wanted to. The problem is that so many people allow a book to dictate their beliefs about the world and act based on those beliefs, without concern for the suffering of others.
Coming from a Christian Fundamentalist background (which I am thankfully no longer a part of) I would agree that the Bible (especially the OT) has verses one can use as evidence that God wants people to commit violence. I would not deny such a thing. Even teenagers who are rebellious to their parents are meant to be killed in the OT. The NT talks about the Law of Love, Mercy, Freedom, as represented in the very life of Christ in that he gave his life he did not take life from others. Jesus never spoke out against the Roman punishment of crucifixion, why would he have said anything about abortion? His kingdom is not of this world, otherwise he would have fought his fight here on earth. You can tell who those Christians are who are straying from Jesus’ message of love, mercy, and Freedom, these people begin quoting the Old Testament more than the New testament. Note the woman preacher in the “Jesus Camp” movie, she uses the OT to attack Harry Potter! “Harry Potter would have been put to death!” That’s the sign that these Christians are what is called in Christian Circles, legalists. They believe that Law should be imposed rather than forgiveness and grace. “Then neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” I am a Christian and I have decided never again to commit an act of violence against another being, even if it means losing everything, and I mean everything. God grant me the strength and grace to fufill it.
Want to know how to find humanity-?
True humanity can only be achieved, by concidering others/ caring about others, as much as, if not more than yourself.
Until we do we are no more than an uncivilisation, with all the uncivilised things that we do…
The rules are no longer, “Do unto other as you would have them do unto you.” The rules are now, “Do unto others whether they like it or not.”
I remember seeing (and I’ve written about this before) the photo of the mother and child that were dug up in Lebanon. The dead baby was still in the dead mother’s arms. It was then that I understood that America had committed a great sin against humanity.
I will still pray for our leaders because it is commanded of me. But I will be very careful how I pray. I will never pray for them to win their wars, that their bombs will hit their targets, and their soldiers will kill as many of the enemy as possible. No. None of that. I will pray the the evil one will be kept far from our leaders, because our leaders are evil enough and need no further encouragement.
Why the Evangelicals have as much blood on their hands as Bush does:
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Wow, that passage doesn’t prove your point in any way Nate. First of all, I can’t see how that pertains to the blood Evangelicals have on their hands. Second of all, it seems taken out of context. Here’s two other translations of the text
NIV:
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
Holman Christian Standard:
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
Both passages are referring to false teachers as John was dealing with Gnosticism, which was a term meaning secret knowledge. These were people who felt like, because they were saved, they could go back to their sinful lives without worry. These false teachers were going from house to house - just as the regular teachers would - and lead people astray in their thinking. John was saying that if what they teach doesn’t match with the teaching’s of Christ, or the teaching’s in the Word, then they should turn them away as false teachers.
And Bush has not left the teachings of Christ? Where have you been, my friend? He has just received permission to raise the level of the types of torture the American government can perpetrate on mankind. Bush is not an apostate? The Evangelicals put him where he is, and do not speak out against the evil deeds he commits. They should sever ties with him, but they don’t. Instead, they place cutouts of him before the children and have the children heap blessings on him. Bush said God speaks through him, but, we found no weapons of mass destruction. So, Bush has not only lied for the war machine, he has lied in God’s name. Are you an Evangelical? Where did you get your commentary from the Schofield Bible? Which Study Bible did you get your pearls of wisdom from? There will be new forms of torture being used on prisoners all over the world. Would you happily have you picture taken standing next to a naked freezing man in a fetal position lying on the floor of a cold room after he has been hosed-down with water? Will you stand there and smile holding your study Bible. Will you post the photo on the internet for all people to see what a great student of the Bible you are? Would you embarrass yourself in such a way. Hypocrite! But it’s okay if somebody else does it, isn’t it? The electrodes that will be attached to men’s testicles to shock them into giving much needed information — the classes for learning this kind of torture are probably being given right now, it’s not too late to sign yourself up.
CaedJar, there are numerous things you’re going to have to know if you’re going to be a true Evangelical of the Modern Age! Let’s start with the basics, okay? How many volts shot into a Muslim’s rectum does it take to make him scream? Furthermore, what kind of clamps do you use? I think it would be best to use the clamps that are used with car batteries. Those heavy duty suckers! When it comes to actually applying those super duper grips, use your imagination. You can attach them to a metal rod, or if you have nothing nearby that is rod-like, see if you can find a hardened one month old Twinkie and wrap aluminum foil around it, then shove it up the Muslim’s rectum. That will do the trick. Then attach said clamps. If you have any more questions on this subject, consult the materials given to you in class. Of course, praying for blessings upon Bush before and after the torture session is always advisable. And don’t forget to have your picture taken of you and the torture suspect terrorist person, you can have it framed and sent to your home church and all the little children in Sunday school can pray blessings on you too! Be a good Evangelical and electrcute one for the home team! Remember: “If your enemy is hungry give him something to eat!” Ooops, sorry, wrong verse. Is that from the Old Testament? Yes, it is. Uh, here it is, uhhh, “Hate thine enemy.” Yeah, that’s it.
[…] but you probably won’t hear about this one on Fox News. White people aren’t terrorists. Robert Cottage (49), of Talbot Street, Colne, and David Bolus Jackson (62), of Trent Road, Nelson, made separate appearances before the court charged with being in possession of an explosive substance for an unlawful purpose. The offences are under the Explosive Substances Act 1883. Both men were reman