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October 11, 2006 James Allen 23 comments

Pandagon has an illuminating post up about feminism and porn.

Itâ€™s true porn reinforces misogynist attitudes, but itâ€™s hardly the cause and itâ€™s probably undeserving of the reputation many anti-porn feminists give it as such a big instigator of violence against women. As Jensen noted in his talk, the group of men who donâ€™t look at porn is â€œan empty setâ€, so the one unsettling thing that has to be dealt with is while the average porn consumer may very well be hostile to women and seek that out, a lot of men who are genuinely feminist are jerking off to it, too. So the bit of bait and switch that many people see with the anti-porn contigency is that the reason porn evokes such strong reactions is most of it is so nakedly misogynist and racist, but that doesnâ€™t mean that itâ€™s the cause of those feelings, so the attention paid to it seems a little out of hand.

Thereâ€™s also the sex-positive argument that porn isnâ€™t inherently hateful, which is true enough and has in fact led to the creation of a teeny subset of the market of more positive porn, but that subset is consumed primarily by women. But what is irrefutable is that the mainstream of porn stubbornly stays focused on racist themes and humiliating and hurting women. All the alternative outlets with teeny tiny audiences wonâ€™t change this one fact. And the language of porn being grounded in humiliating women is disputed only if youâ€™re willing to lie to yourself

I absolutely agree with Amanda. 99% of porn is horribly misogynist, but it doesn’t have to be. There is nothing inherently wrong with porn, but almost every minute of it that is produced is utter garbage.

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Written by twincats about 3 years ago.

If you think we have misogynistic porn here, you should see what they produce in Japan! I came to have two boxes of ‘adult anime’ courtesy of a recently departed relative and my percieved expertise at eBay selling.

I watched some of it and will take good old regular porn any day of the week! Needless to say, I can’t sell this s**t on eBay!
Written by Sara about 3 years ago.

Here’s the thing that really depresses me. It says that most porn is misogynistic and depicts violence towards women, which is probably true. It also says that all men like porn and only women watch porn that isn’t mysogynistic, therefore all men must like misogynist porn. Does that mean that all men are really misogynist deep down, but pretend they aren’t because it’s not socially acceptable? I really don’t want to view men that way, but sometimes when I read things like this, it’s very hard not to. I end up thinking that 99% of men are very bad people.
Written by Sara about 3 years ago.

Here’s the part of the original article which goes along with what I wrote before:

Jensen told us he went to an adult entertainment convention in Las Vegas and was interviewing people the whole time and he interviewed one director who figured that men turn to porn for just this hostility. As Jensen told it, the guy said that he thinks the average porn viewer turns to porn after hearing his wife â€œnagâ€ him and thinks that heâ€™d like to see her (or any woman, I guess) fucked up the ass until it hurt. The story was meant to illustrate how misogyny drives the market, which it did, but itâ€™s noteworthy that misogyny drives the market. In this case, for instance, if the hypothetical viewer was not already of the belief that women were inferior to him, he wouldnâ€™t be angry that his wife dares speak up to him, and then he wouldnâ€™t have this anger that he takes out by watching a video where he gets an explicit representation of a woman being put in her place (at least as far as heâ€™s concerned).

That’s what bothers me, that so many men feel a need to see women “put in their place.” Those men are assholes. I just hope they are a minority.
Written by twincats about 3 years ago.

It seems that lots of people believe that porn is mysogynistic and bad. I accept that, but don’t really get it. I am a woman who likes both sex and porn and don’t see the mysogynism. But then again, I have never had the misfortune to be used or abused by a man, unlike many of the others I’ve seen (I’m currently fascinated by the ‘tale’ of the Biting Beaver and agree with most of her opinions.) So I am more than willing to admit to a certain degree of naivete here.

Maybe my husband buys the wrong porn, but I’m just not seeing any violence toward women, just people having sex in admittedly improbable (i.e. stuff that happens only in fantasyland) situations. My favorite tape is one that has clips of non-professionals that was professionally edited.
Written by Sara about 3 years ago.

I live in the Bible Belt, twincats. Respect for women can be hard to come by sometimes, so that probably colors my opinion. I’m actually not sure how I feel about porn, but I’m definitely NOT against sex.
Written by twincats about 3 years ago.

I guess that’s another thing that colors my judgment; I live in SoCal and have a friend who used to work (on the distribution side) in the porn industry. She got to meet lots of performers who, according to her, are mostly nice, well adjusted and normal people. While she did meet some a**holes, (mostly men) the women were down-to-earth and very non-judgmental of her very public pagan status (for which she takes a lot of flak otherwise!)
Written by Sara about 3 years ago.

Open sexism is pretty common around here. And it’s not just the men, it’s the old women, too. It’s just really got me down right now. It’s not that everyone is sexist, but some are so vocal about it. I’m not sure why I’m so bothered by it, but it makes me very sad and discouraged.
Written by James Allen about 3 years ago.

Sara:

After talking with a few male friends who are both feminists and wonâ€™t bullshit and play like they donâ€™t look at that stuff, the best theory I can come up with is that men who seek porn out solely as a masturbatory aid develop something of a skill at ignoring the stuff in porn that offends them. The other thing that I came to realize is that men who tend to look at it occasionally are not the consumers who drive the market; most of them probably donâ€™t even pay for it. Itâ€™s the men who have a psychological issue of some sort who get mildly to deeply obsessed with porn and buy a ton of videos, and since they spend the money, they drive the market. And theyâ€™re the ones who want the anger and hate.
Written by twincats about 3 years ago.

Been back to BB’s site reading some of her earlier rants (her word, not mine) on porn. I ‘ve also read her background stuff. She’s so persuasive in her honesty, and a damn good writer, to boot.

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess evil and ugliness are, too. It’s sobering to think that I enjoy something so many women find hurtful and hateful.

Gonna go and think for a while…
Written by Sara about 3 years ago.

Yeah, she made me think twice, too, twincats. I had to honestly answer that the enjoyment anyone gets out of porn is not worth the risk of one woman or child being harmed in it’s production (and many, many women and children are harmed). But, at the same time, I think there is a very tiny amount of porn out there which isn’t harmful and I have no problem with that. It’s rare, though, and certainly not mainstream.

As far as men who enjoy porn but ignore the violence, why are they ignoring the violence? Why don’t they speak up against it? Why don’t they make some porn with higher standards? If true responsibility was exercised in the porn industry, I think most people would be okay with it. But decent people, including men, are going to have to put their foot down and demand responsibility from the people with the power in that industry.
Written by James Allen about 3 years ago.

Did you just tell me to make porn?
Written by Marty about 3 years ago.

I think you are way off about the mainstream of porn. Most of it is not hateful toward women at all. Maybe I haven’t seen a big enough sample, but there seems to be a lot more without pain or violence than with it. People assume that porn is harmful, so they read a lot inot it. Don’t get me wrong, I agree that there is a large percentage of porn that is hateful, and it does harm to many people. Most men, however, do not want to see women hurt. At worst, they are frustrated and use porn as a release. I’m sure that bad porn is mostly the effect of bad people, not the cause.
Written by Sara about 3 years ago.

It’s not just pain or violence, it’s misogynist views of women as objects to be used rather than as people.
Written by twincats about 3 years ago.

To be quite honest, I don’t think that the men really come off as people, either; they’re mainly just jackhammering sex machines.
Written by Marty about 3 years ago.

I agree with twincats, both genders are ignored as people. The fact that most of the audience is men just makes it seem misogynistic.
Written by Sara about 3 years ago.

In a lot of it, the men are presented as being in control. That’s what makes it mysogynistic. I don’t think porn is inherently bad. I just think most of it that is currently available is bad for various reasons, but it doesn’t have to be.
Written by twincats about 3 years ago.

Does anyone else have a problem with the proverbial and vaunted “money shot?” It’s definitely not MY favorite part of the show, but I must conclude from its universal inclusion that it’s important for men to have that proof of every scene’s erotic value.
Written by Marty about 3 years ago.

I agree twincats. I’m sure it’s a vicarious thing, that’s why it is included, and in fact that’s why there are men in the show at all!

Sara, I see your point, male characters are usually in charge. That’s not quite misogynistic though, until the man does something degrading or abusive to the woman. Again that is a large percentage but I don’t think the majority of porn has it. A whole lot of porn, as you say, is bad but does not need to be. I think the producers are making wrong assumptions about what the audience wants.
Written by Sara about 3 years ago.

I think it is mysogynistic that men are generally in charge in porn. If you will allow me a ridiculous comparison, imagine if women weren’t allowed to participate in our government. Would that be okay as long as the men in the government looked out for women’s rights?

What worries me isn’t the porn itself. It’s what it says about our society which consumes it (male and female). Producers make what they can sell. Mysogyny sells.
Written by Marty about 3 years ago.

If men were not represented in government, but the women in power always looked out for our rights, it would be OK. The trouble of course is that this will never happen when one group is in power and the other not represented. I will agree that porn should have women in charge at least in proportion to the audience. In other words, if one fifth as many women watch as men, then they should be in charge at least one fifth as often in the movies. If, as you say, the producers only make what sells, this should automatically balance out.
Written by Sara about 3 years ago.

Why does someone have to be in charge? Why does sex have to be about control and power? In my opinion, that is a deranged view of sex. This kind of pornography promotes misogyny as normal and “manly.” I think it is unlikely that viewing large amounts of this material does not effect how people interact with others in real life.

But porn is a much larger issue than just this one problem. Pornography and the sex industry as a whole involve abuse of women in many cases. In many places in the world, women and children are literally forced into sexual slavery. Women are also forced to work in the sex industry to pay family debts or to simply pay the bills because women do not have equal access to many of the relatively high-paying blue-collar jobs men can get. Rich men then use these women and children because they feel entitled to do so and do not care about these people and in fact do not truly see them as people at all.

It is that same attitude that leads to the production and consumption of misogynistic porn. It is hateful and wrong and says something very poor about the character of men who participate, even as viewers. But misogyny is so deeply ingrained in our culture, that many people don’t even recognize it when they see it. It’s “normal” in the sense that it is common.
Written by Marty about 3 years ago.

I think I misunderstood your meaning of “in charge”. I thought you were drawing a line between one person being in charge and the other. Aparently you are talking about when someone is slapping, pulling hair, or making demands. Yes, more prevalent that the man does this, but in most porn, I think, these do not happen (I’m no expert though). I think most porn shows no one in charge, just a couple of animals, like the discovery channel.
I agree that there is a huge exploitation problem in the world, but it has little to do with porn in the U.S.
Written by Sara about 3 years ago.

It has everything to do with misogynist porn in the US. Both are fueled by the same attitude that women are commodities to be used as men see fit. I think enjoying violent or hateful porn ( which is the majority) is a sign of a lack of emotional health.

The men who watch this sort of thing believe it is okay to buy a person. They buy women at strip clubs. They buy prostitutes. If they are rich enough, they fly to third world countries and buy 12 year old sex slaves. It is the same attitude towards women in any case.

It is the same attitude which claims women shouldn’t hold certain jobs, can’t drive as well as men, aren’t as smart, are more emotional (in a bad sense), are better at parenting and housework (and so should do all of that), shouldn’t hold political office, etc. It’s the same attitude which claims most rape victims are liars (bullshit) and that women being brutally raped is just part of war and to be expected.

I’m fed up with it and won’t say that it’s okay and healthy to have those attitudes, because it’s not. It’s the same damn attitude that fuels the whole problem of misogyny and mistreatment of women. Violent and hateful porn is part of that problem.